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A European Politician Visits Guantanamo

"Almost a Kind of Mental Torture"

Elmar Brok, a German member of the European Parliament from the conservative Christian Democratic Union party visited the United States prison camp at Guantanamo, Cuba earlier this week. In an interview with SPIEGEL ONLINE, he says conditions have improved but the general problem has not been solved: people are being locked away indefinitely and without trial.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Mister Brok, you've just visited the US detention camp in Guantanamo with three other members of the European Parliament and two members of the United States Congress. People whom the US administration views as possible terrorists have been held in Guantanamo for years. What's your impression?

Brok: The most striking thing is that a new prison is being built for $34 million and no one is thinking about closing anything down. By the way, the new prison meets the US's highest medical and hygienic standards -- but it doesn't have a single window. Not a single window! And when you consider that detainees have no prospect of being released or even of a proper trial, what you have, of course, is mental pressure -- almost a kind of mental torture.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: How did the US officials respond to your objections?

Brok: The US officials didn't understand our criticism. One reason is that normal US prisons don't aim to reintegrate detainees into society, but to punish them. Now this approach is being applied at Guantanamo. The reply to the question concerning the missing windows was this: It's no different in other modern prisons. US officials also explained to us that 20 percent of the detainees are already undergoing medical treatment because of the psychological situation.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why were you and your European and American colleagues invited?

Brok: The Americans know they've already lost the propaganda war as far as Guantanamo is concerned. They now want to show how much they care for the detainees, what kind of medical services are offered there. There can be no doubt they've improved the situation. On the other hand, they still don't understand that their camp does not adhere to the rules of a constitutional democracy.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: It's not just in the US that a discussion is taking place as to whether it's legitimate, in the struggle against modern terrorism, to preventively detain suspected perpetrators and not treat them in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.

Brok: But the West must not surrender the values we stand for, the very values for which we are being fought against. Otherwise we lose much of our credibility and will be less likely to be able to convince people to share our positions.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Did you talk to the US officials in the camp about this European position?

Brok: Their answer is this: These are dangerous people who may become active again when they're released -- no matter what the legal issues may be, they're something like prisoners of war, even if they're not treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. From my point of view, the problem is that people are being locked away indefinitely, without a proper trial. That's not acceptable.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Were you able to speak to the detainees?

Brok: No. We could only see them. The prisoners seem to be treated well -- as far as food, clothes, shelter and medical treatment are concerned. It doesn't seem comparable to the images we saw after 2001 …

SPIEGEL ONLINE: You mean the hooded detainees in orange overalls?

Brok: Yes. You don't see that sort of thing anymore. But the fact that the treatment of the detainees has improved doesn't change the general problem.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: There have been a number of suicide attempts in the camp recently.

Brok: We were shown the instruments the detainees used in their suicide attempts, and the procedures were described to us. We also saw the part of the camp where some of the devastation could still be seen. The detainees tore cameras from the walls, disassembled ventilation fans and other things of this nature. But this happened precisely in the part of the camp where the detainees who are judged less dangerous are held, detainees who dispose of a relatively high degree of freedom of movement. They can live together in groups, for example, and they have sports areas.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Were the prisoners trying to send the message that they wanted to be freed?

Brok: It seems that way. The US officials explained to us that they didn't have an overview of the situation at first, that the vandalism and the suicide attempts carried out in some areas were part of a concerted operation.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What conclusions have you drawn from your visit to Guantanamo?

Brok: We have to find new ways to get the Americans out of this situation into which they've gotten themselves with Guantanamo. It's true there are very dangerous people among the detainees. How does the international community deal with international terrorism? New international rules should be established on this point, rules that call for new international responsibility. It has to be a matter of keeping these people from acting violently, on the one hand, and of applying internationally valid legal standards to them at the same time.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What do you mean specifically?

Brok: We have to ask ourselves whether we should give an international body responsibility for the camp and whether dealing with international terrorism should fall within the competence of the International Criminal Court -- a body that, unfortunately, the US doesn't full recognize.

Interview conducted by Severin Weiland.