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  SPIEGEL Interview With Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves: 'We Want to Re-Write History'

SPIEGEL Interview With Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves 'We Want to Re-Write History'

Part 3: 'We Need a Pragmatic Relationship with Russia'

SPIEGEL: You were at the security conference in Munich when (Russian President Vladimir) Putin gave his now-famous speech against the American missile shield. How do you interpret the new tough talk coming from the Kremlin?

Ilves: People respect Germany because it is a reputable country that behaves in a normal and democratic way. It's a rich country. Russia, on the other hand, they respect out of fear. I think part of what's happening is an attempt to forge a new national identity that extends from Peter the Great through Alexander II to the Soviet experience. Referring to the collapse of the Soviet Union as the greatest tragedy of the 20th century is like comparing apples and oranges. Celebrating the establishment of (the Bolshevik secret police) the Cheka by Felix Dzerzhinsky is the same thing as celebrating the founding of the Gestapo. There is no difference.

SPIEGEL: Those are strong words.

Ilves: What do you want me to say? In Russia, the president visits the headquarters of the Cheka or the KGB or, as it is now called, the FSB every year on December 20 to commemorate the anniversary of the Chekists. When I visited German President (Horst) Köhler, he thought I was crazy when I asked him whether he could imagine paying a visit to (Germany's domestic intelligence agency) the Office for the Protection of the Constitution on the anniversary of the founding of the Gestapo. He looked at me as if he were asking himself: Who is this idiot who's come to visit me from Estonia? I said: "But Putin does this every year." He answered: "No." I said: "Yes, he does." Then his Russian advisor confirmed it, saying: "Yes, yes, he does do that."

SPIEGEL: Since 1991, Russia has been trying to maintain its influence in former Soviet republics by fanning the flames of latent conflicts. It has also supported an autonomy movement in your country's northeast, and now it is preventing heavy goods vehicles from crossing a bridge at the border. How effective can such leverage be in a country that is now a member of both the EU and NATO?

Ilves: As long as Moscow claims -- as in the case of the boycott on Georgian goods -- that it has nothing to do with politics, then it can do all kinds of things. In the case of our border bridge, they simply said: It needs to be repaired. But as soon as this becomes official policy, they are dealing with the EU. I believe Russia is currently testing the meaning of membership in the EU. They don't know what it is yet, and they prefer to take bilateral action. The idea of a political union of nation states seems odd to the Russians.

SPIEGEL: How should the EU deal with Russia in the future?

Ilves: We must abandon the myth -- which some people in Germany have propagated -- that Russia is a large democracy. It simply isn't. I believe that would save us some illusions. We will need a pragmatic relationship with Russia, because it supplies most of Europe's natural gas.

SPIEGEL: But in the EU everyone decides for himself what exactly "pragmatic" means.

Ilves: Given Russia's behavior, we must see ourselves first as EU states, and we must state that this or that is unacceptable, because we are a political union. Old and new members must act in concert. I always tell my Polish friends, you can't be against the constitution and then expect solidarity from the EU when you have problems with Russia. Conversely -- and I say this to my German friends -- you cannot have a constitutional treaty and expect countries like Poland to agree to the "double majority" voting system when they don't feel completely certain that they won't be sold down the river to Russia in some dubious bargain.

SPIEGEL: Are you under the impression that the new EU countries with their unique historical experiences are not taken seriously in Western Europe?

Ilves: Yes. One cannot simply extinguish people's memories in these countries. A common trait among the new EU countries is their pro-American stance, which results from their fear of Russia. It generates great resentment when people who don't know Russia try to tell people who have experienced Russia at first hand what Russia and the Russians are like.

SPIEGEL: Mr. President, thank you for the interview.

Interview conducted by Christian Neef and Jan Puhl.