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  SPIEGEL ONLINE Interview with Historian Timothy Garton Ash: 'A Clear European Voice is Missing in the World'

SPIEGEL ONLINE Interview with Historian Timothy Garton Ash 'A Clear European Voice is Missing in the World'

Part 2: 'Enlargement Can't Go on Forever'

AFP

Can Merkel and Sarkozy get the EU back on track?

Garton Ash: They’re wrong to bristle. If you look at the politics around Iran or climate change, for example, there's simply no way to get anything done without paying attention to major players such as China, India and Russia. I think it’s a simple statement of fact that we’re back in a multi-polar world. That doesn’t mean that, if Europe and the US decide to act together, they’re not the most important players -- they will still have immense clout. But those two partners will still have to take into account the Chinese, Russian or Indian positions.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Nonetheless, some in America still complain that Europe remains a "consumer" of security, rather than having become a "producer". What are the prospects of a common European defense force?

Garton Ash: That is a very good question, because the EU won’t be credible unless it has a serious military capacity. That said, it won’t be anything like the scale of the US military. But we must have a serious rapid reaction force which can, for example, intervene in failed states.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: It seems, though, that in European security circles there’s still an emphasis on peace-keeping, as opposed to full military operations.

Garton Ash: I think that can be exaggerated. Don’t forget it was the former British Prime Minister Tony Blair who pushed for ground troops to be sent into Kosovo and it was former US President Bill Clinton's administration that was hesitant. And Europe was split right down the middle on Iraq. The idea that Americans are from Mars and Europeans are from Venus just doesn’t hold up.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: The EU does have a strong military presence in Kosovo, though negotiations between Serbs and Kosovars over the area's fate seem to have stalled. Do you think if those negotiations fail, the EU should prepare to unilaterally recognize Kosovo's independence?

Garton Ash: I have no doubt that the long-term future for Kosovo is a state of supervised independence, leading to eventual membership in the EU. But it's a very difficult problem, and in the most immediate future, the EU should keep negotiating with all parties involved -- which means, above all, with Serbia and Russia.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: You mentioned that the EU is approaching the end of its expansion. Recent elections in Ukraine indicate, though, that Ukrainians are interested in closer ties with Europe. Should Europe be moving closer to Ukraine?

Garton Ash: Like I said, enlargement can’t go on forever. But I think we should say a strategic yes to Ukraine, just as we’ve said a strategic yes to Turkey.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Russia has long seen Ukraine as part of its sphere of influence. By approaching Ukraine, would the EU risk escalating tension with a newly-aggressive Russia?

Garton Ash: I don’t think that’s true. If the EU takes a clear position -- namely that if Ukraine wants to, and if it fulfills the Copenhagen Criteria, then one day it can be a member of the EU -- then that would actually strengthen the Ukrainian state. It would also create clarity in relations with Russia. And that clarity would serve to reduce tension.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Turkey is probably the most controversial candidate for entry to the EU. If it were up to French President Nicolas Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel, though, Turkey would become a "privileged partner" rather than a full-fledged member of Europe. Is that a wise approach?

Garton Ash: This strikes me as one of the most problematic issues currently facing Europe. Europe has long-standing commitments to Turkey, and it’s short-sighted to simply overlook them. Turkey ought to be seen as an opportunity for Europe to escape insularity, a chance to be a force in the wider world. It would certainly be a failure of leadership to suggest backing away from those promises and to walk away from negotiations.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Who should we expect to lead Europe through the next few turbulent years?

Garton Ash: I’m not sure Europe has any one leader, and I’m not sure that it needs any one leader. That said, we’re fortunate to have in Sarkozy and Merkel two leaders who are very capable, very active and very engaged. And there’s a very strong commission president in José Manuel Barroso. There’s no lack of potential leaders.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Germany, though, has come under some criticism from the US and France for not showing leadership in negotiations with Iran and by trying to slow down sanctions. Why do you think Germany is being hesitant?

Garton Ash: I’m not entirely sure. I do know that Europe can’t afford to fail this test. Europe is the best chance to prevent an American-led or American-endorsed bombing campaign against Iran. Europe still has strong economic ties with Iran, and a serious European foreign policy will have to prepare to use those ties as a stick in negotiations. But some countries, including Germany, have been reluctant. It’s a shame to think that it might be because of purely domestic considerations. Yes, there are jobs at stake, but that shouldn't determine policy -- because these same European politicians are aware that America may prefer a very different, more aggressive, and more risky policy.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Should we expect the EU to strongly oppose a possible war against Iran?

Garton Ash: It’s safe to say that Europe would be nearly unanimous on that count.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: You’ve written about the need for a communal story about the European Union. If it were up to you, what would the outlines of that story be?

Garton Ash: I feel that a very convincing story can be told about Europe, one that weaves together six major European themes of the past 50 years: freedom, peace, law, prosperity, diversity and solidarity. On that score, the history of the EU has been a success and an inspiration, and the story that Europe tells about itself can be based on a quick comparison with Europe from the previous 50 years. But, the story won’t be a one-size-fits-all 19th-century-style narrative, where there’s one dominant, all-knowing voice. That’s the beauty of how Europe works -- everyone has their part to contribute, their own history, their own culture, their own perspective. Those voices are different, but they share likenesses, and the concert of those voices will make the narrative.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: And how can the newly formed European Council on Foreign Relations contribute to the telling of that story?

Garton Ash: If the goal is to speak with a clearer and more united voice to the rest of the world, to have an impact on countries that are not going to become members, then we have to work out what we’re going to say. And the trouble is that there are lots of people in London thinking for Britain and lots of people in Paris thinking about France, and lots of people in Berlin thinking about Germany. But even in Brussels there aren’t that many people thinking European. What are our common European interests? Which instruments and weapons do we have to realize them? That’s what the European Council on Foreign Relations can do. It can do the European thinking. It can’t act, but it can suggest how we will and can act. And that is what is really missing -- because Brussels spends more money on cleaners than it does on people thinking about European foreign policy.

Interview conducted by Cameron Abadi.

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