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02/09/2010

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Despite the fact that the EU is bumbling along without a leader, it is still getting ready to accept a whole host of highly problematic new members. Is that really such a wise idea?

Verheugen: That will be the biggest question that the EU has to answer. This will be the issue where we have to show just how much desire for unity we really have. Will the belief prevail that expansion causes more problems than it solves? Or will we realize that we don't need to be anxious about having a larger Europe and that, in the long run, expansion guarantees political and economic stability even in those parts of Europe where we don't currently have those things?

SPIEGEL ONLINE: But the question has already been decided, at least as far as the German public is concerned. They say: Enough is enough, stop.

Verheugen: I know that this is a widespread view. But that would be a fatal mistake. I wish that politicians in Germany would acknowledge the great success of the two waves of enlargement, in 2004 and 2007. If one neglects to mention the positive results and only points to the alleged problem children of Romania and Bulgaria -- which, incidentally, they are not -- then one should not be surprised if people are suspicious about the next wave of enlargement.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: But opposition is growing, and not just in Germany.

Verheugen: The idea here is the old conception of European integration as a western European project in which Eastern and Central Europe have been left out. A new dividing line through Europe would be historically inappropriate and shortsighted. Or perhaps you can explain to me why the Serbs are less European than the Irish or Portuguese?

SPIEGEL ONLINE: But why is it shortsighted to slow the expansion of the EU's territory so that existing problems can first be solved before new ones emerge?

Verheugen: It's shortsighted because the real argument is actually the following: They're too poor, we don't want to have them because we would then have to feed them. That argument turns the reality completely on its head. All the major waves of enlargement that we have had up until now have involved countries which were lagging significantly behind in terms of economic performance, which then caught up as a result of being EU members and which, as a whole, helped to drive growth and create jobs, especially in Germany.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: But nothing has harmed the reputation of the EU as much as the accession of Romania and Bulgaria.

Verheugen: I am aware of that. But if I were asked which EU member state had the biggest problems with organized crime, it would not occur to me to mention Bulgaria and Romania first. In any case, what is certain is that the democratic maturation process that is still needed there would not be encouraged if those countries were outside the Union.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: But that is still not an argument in favor of further enlargement.

Verheugen: The Balkan states and Turkey are on the agenda. The Balkan countries have had the prospect of membership since 1999. That was a deal: You get the prospect of joining the EU and, in return, you work to create stability in your country. That worked well in some places and badly in others. At times it went badly on the whole. Now some countries are doing a bit better. Others, especially Bosnia-Herzegovina, are an almost insoluble problem, in my opinion. They simply do not want to live together in one state, but they do want to live in a united Europe. This explosive part of Europe can only achieve long-term stability if it is part of the EU.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Does that mean that Turkey can only become more European if it is in the EU?

Verheugen: I am convinced of that, assuming you mean democracy and the rule of law. It is in our interests that Turkey belongs to us, the family of Western democracies. One of the major issues of the 21st century will be how the relationship between the West and the Islamic world develops. And in that respect it makes a big difference whether a country the size and importance of Turkey is in the European Union or not.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: But aren't the Turks actually moving away from the European community of values at the moment?

Verheugen: For the moment, that's how it looks. We are all caught in a kind of vicious circle together. The negative signals from Europe changes the direction of Turkish politics. This change is then interpreted by those actors that sent out the negative signals in the first place as a confirmation of their reservations.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: How far do you want to expand? After the Balkans and Turkey, are we then going to Europeanize Ukraine and Belarus?

Verheugen: The rule states that any European nation that meets the necessary conditions may apply for membership. But it would be meaningless to talk now about the possible accession of Belarus or Ukraine. That is not on the agenda. But don't forget that both countries are important to us, for example, in terms of energy policy.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: With that argument, you would soon be on the lookout for new EU members in Siberia.

Verheugen: I am not looking for new members and am opposed to an accelerated enlargement policy which goes beyond the commitments that have already been made. But I think it is realistic to imagine a pan-European common market that includes the entire continent and also our Mediterranean neighbors.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Are you trying to make us really afraid now?

Verheugen: On the contrary, I am thinking of your future. We are already in direct competition with economies such as China and India and in the near future Latin America. They are all much bigger than us and are continuing to grow dramatically. If we want to be competitive, we will need a larger European market.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Together with Russia?

Verheugen: Absolutely.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: It took almost 10 years to push through the reforms that are now part of the Lisbon Treaty, which entered into force in December 2009. How long will it take to establish this vision of a Europe that stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific?

Verheugen: In principle, it has already been decided in the form of the European Neighborhood Policy. It is already one of the EU's policy objectives. This will be one of the major challenges facing Europe's future leadership team of Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, Catherine Ashton, Europe's foreign policy chief, and, of course, the president of the European Council, Herman Van Rompuy.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Excuse me, but that almost sounds cynical. Doesn't such a grand vision require more high-profile leaders?

Verheugen: We received the leaders that the governments of the EU's member states were currently able to agree upon. And if you have some criticisms of them, then I'm afraid I have to ask you to contact Angela Merkel or Gordon Brown or Nicolas Sarkozy -- but, please, not me. Now we need to give the new leaders a fair chance. That's the important thing.

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• Part 1: The EU 'Has No Vision of Where We Are Heading'
• Part 2: 'No More Institutional Changes for Quite Some Time'
• Part 3: The Next Wave of Enlargement