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SPIEGEL Interview with Joschka Fischer

'An Anti-American Axis? That's Nonsense'

Former German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer discusses opposition against the Iraq war that threatened to put Berlin in the same camp as Syria, the threat of a Tehran-led arms race in one of the world's most unstable regions and the mixed legacy of former Chancellor Gerhard Schröder.

In the first section of his interview with SPIEGEL, former German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer discusses the legacy of the Red-Green government under Chancellor Gerhard Schröder. Click here to go to the second part of the interview, where Fischer reflects on the run-up to the Iraq war and discusses the Iran nuclear crisis.

SPIEGEL: Mr. Fischer, as foreign minister you fought vehemently for the deployment of the German military (the Bundeswehr) to Kosovo and Afghanistan. At its recent national party conference, though, the Green Party voted against the use of Tornado fighter jets in Afghanistan. It doesn't appear that you have left any lasting impression on your party.

Fischer: Perhaps some people can now understand why I just wanted to get out. The party consumed a great deal of my energy. It did help me achieve an incredible political victory, but in the end I was tired, simply tired. This constant struggle between illusion and reality, these discussions with people who sometimes have no idea what they're talking about -- these things left me exhausted. I didn't let on, but I was worn out.

SPIEGEL: How would you assess the situation in your party today?

Fischer: A look at the history of the Greens should teach everyone that for us the road to decline was consistently paved with illusionary or radical decisions. But now the party will have to slog its way through. I think it'll be a difficult time.

SPIEGEL: Where were you when you watched the party's conference?

Fischer: Nowhere. That's behind me now. The door is shut.

SPIEGEL: But doesn't it also hurt a bit?

Fischer: Of course it hurts. It's my party. Besides, the old hunting dog immediately thinks about the political consequences.

SPIEGEL: And what is the old hunting dog thinking?

Fischer: The chances that the grand coalition (the current German government comprising Angela Merkel's conservative Christian Democrats and the center-left Social Democrats) will continue to exist after 2009 have increased.

SPIEGEL: You believe that your party is no longer capable of being part of the government?

Fischer: How can I speculate over the governing ability of parties? Majorities are what matters. The Greens are having problems at the moment, and so is the Social Democratic Party (SPD). The Left Party will have a big problem if it gets elected. The Greens will have to sort themselves out and decide on the direction they intend to pursue: to move forward independently or in the wake of (Left Party leader Oskar) Lafontaine. This is not just a decision for the new leadership, but also for the party's membership.

SPIEGEL: Do the Greens need another strong figure instead of four or five top people?

Fischer: I don't want to get mixed up in that. I believe that you pay a high price if you succumb to illusions because you then face the lengthy process of clawing your way back or you could completely collapse.

SPIEGEL: You were the most important Green politician for years, but you always had your problems with the party.

Fischer: I remained an outsider within the national party. I'm a survivor, but at times it was very difficult, even for a survivor.

SPIEGEL: On the other hand, many were under the impression that you were the secret chairman, the one who ultimately had the say. Was your influence overestimated?

Fischer: Yes and no. You have to consider the situation carefully. When it came to success at the polls and preserving power, my influence was certainly considerable. But otherwise it was limited. At the beginning, I had real problems being part of a party, because I had my roots in the (German left-wing) "Sponti" movement.

SPIEGEL: But you did manage to come a long way in the party.

Fischer: As far back as my first report card in school, they were saying that I had a quick grasp of things. I learned very quickly. I would have liked to change the rules, and I would have preferred that we develop more of a traditional party structure, but there was simply nothing to be done about it.

SPIEGEL: There was periodic speculation that you might switch to the SPD. Was there any truth to it?

Fischer: No. Switching to the SPD was not my intention. There were a few times -- in Bielefeld in 1999, for example, when the Green Party was discussing the German military's deployment in Kosovo -- when I told myself: If I lose the vote now, I'll stand up and congratulate the winners, but that'll be it for me. For me it would have meant walking out, not joining a different party.

SPIEGEL: The SPD is also quarreling over the Bundeswehr's deployment to Afghanistan. And there is a wing of the Social Democrats and Greens that has distanced itself from Agenda 2010 (former Chancellor Gerhard Schröder's package of economic and social system reforms). Are you still proud of the years in which the Green Party governed Germany in a coalition with Schröder's SPD?

Fischer: Absolutely! We pushed through important things in domestic and foreign policy, and in social reform. We shouldn't feel ashamed -- on the contrary. When I look at the grand coalition today, I see that it's following the same tracks we laid in the first place. And that's a good thing.

SPIEGEL: If everything was as good as you say it was, why are there doubts within the SPD and the Green Party?

Fischer: You'll have to ask the doubters themselves. I am in the enviable position that I no longer have to pay much attention to these existential questions. Incidentally, neither Agenda 2010 nor Afghanistan was an expression of subjective considerations. We weren't exactly keen on the idea of sending soldiers to Afghanistan or cutting social benefits. But the Taliban regime could no longer be tolerated after Sept. 11. And government debt and unemployment were becoming a problem for the economy. Besides, Germany was losing considerable ground to our key competitors. Something had to be done. Just as with any business enterprise, restructuring is painful for the state, but sometimes necessary. Supporting the Agenda was one of Gerhard Schröder's great achievements.

SPIEGEL: He was never able to completely convince his party.

Fischer: He knew that he was running the risk of losing the next election. But he also knew that Germany would end up losing out if nothing changed.

SPIEGEL: In your book you admit that the reforms came too late because there were two positions in the SPD -- one embodied by Schröder and the other by Lafontaine.

Fischer: Yes, there were mistakes. It started with the first coalition negotiations in 1998. We negotiated with two social democratic parties. Lafontaine would always start out by saying: This is non-negotiable. It's one of the German Social Democratic Party's campaign promises, and we're going to stick to it. The man was very powerful at the time. All the things he is promising today once again could have been done then, and the SPD would have supported him.

SPIEGEL: Lafontaine's departure was followed by Schröder's "steady hand" policy.

Fischer: After the speculative bubble of the New Economy had burst in the spring of 2000, and the longest recovery since World War II had come to an end, we could have used a more active policy. And during the coalition negotiations at the beginning of the second legislative period in 2002, we were doing serious damage to ourselves every day.

SPIEGEL: How so?

Fischer: Through poorly developed proposals for cutbacks, and then some.

SPIEGEL: The reforms were not implemented quickly enough to have done the SPD-Greens coalition any good in the end. Does this upset you?

Fischer: Oh, I wouldn't say it upsets me. Despite our mistakes, it was mostly the global economic downturn that made life so difficult for us. However, I am convinced that the biggest mistakes were made by the Kohl administration. (Former Chancellor) Helmut Kohl's historic contribution was tremendous -- that is, his achievements when it came to German reunification. But after that he simply postponed the necessary reforms. And it was purely for reasons of preserving power.

SPIEGEL: You too left a lot of unfinished business. Pensions, nursing care, and then there was that failed effort at healthcare reform.

Fischer: Wrong. I disagree with you completely on the issue of pensions, for example. Walter Riester (who served as labor minister under Schröder and devised a state-backed private pension plan) was humiliated and written off, but it was completely unjustified. He made tremendous contributions and he cleaned up this German grand delusion that the younger generation's pensions are still secure. I was in favor of making private pension provisions mandatory up to a certain level of income. I come from a poor family, and I never felt that insurance was something compulsory. If you're not that well off, putting something away voluntarily is always a difficult decision. Unfortunately, we capitulated in the face of the campaign by the opposition and (tabloid newspaper) Bild. But the "Riester Pension" is a historic reform!

SPIEGEL: And now you're being one-upped by a Christian Democrat chancellor when it comes to environmental policy, the Green Party's core issue.

Fischer: Oh come on. A green chancellor? Sure, (Chancellor) Angela Merkel is pursuing our policies on women, human rights and the climate. We would have called her an eco-liberal. I'd like to see things continue this way, especially now that I'm no longer involved in party politics. I truly wish her success on the issue. But don't be too quick to celebrate her as the climate chancellor. We are still the only country that shies away from introducing a national speed limit. We still lack the revolutionary spirit to implement Merkel's ambitious climate goals. "Words, words, never deeds, plenty of vegetables, but not much meat." Let's hope Heinrich Heine isn't right once again.

SPIEGEL: Your fellow party member (and former Environment Minister) Jürgen Trittin has just praised the chancellor, saying that she has dealt with the electricity companies far more effectively than Schröder.

Fischer: Perhaps. (Former Minister of Economics and Labour) Wolfgang Clement made things difficult for him. But his biggest problem was the fierce opposition coming from Christian Democrats in the Bundesrat (the upper house of the German parliament), where they were in the majority and had taken tough anti-environmental positions. Just think of the eco-tax. My goodness, was that a mess. I'm very pleased to see that the government sees things differently today and is continuing our policies.