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  'Jihad on our Doorstep': German Spy Chief Warns of Al-Qaida's Growing Strength in North Africa

'Jihad on our Doorstep' German Spy Chief Warns of Al-Qaida's Growing Strength in North Africa

Part 3: 'The Challenge Posed by Islamist Terrorism is Global'

SPIEGEL: What role does the Internet play in all this?

Uhrlau: One that we must not underestimate. The Internet is where ideas for attacks are dreamed up, where terrorist know-how is made accessible to the public and where concrete operation plans are shared. This takes place in hidden chat rooms and Web sites, some of which are elaborately protected. Some of these dead letter boxes are so well protected by encryption algorithms that even intelligence agencies need years to crack them.

SPIEGEL: But in that case, online surveillance, which has provoked so much controversy in Germany, doesn't help you much either.

Uhrlau: It would indeed help us, by enabling us to penetrate the secure forums more easily.

SPIEGEL: What is the importance of these forums for the terrorists?

Uhrlau: The ones that are relatively harmless campaign for jihad, are filled with hate and propaganda and inflame their visitors with attack videos and emotional music. The militant forums show examples of successful attacks and films of terrorists who became martyrs by committing an attack. They also provide instructions for mass murder. They describe in detail, for example, how to set up an explosive vest so that it causes the greatest possible destruction.

SPIEGEL: The Cologne suitcase bombers also downloaded the instructions for how to make their bombs from the Internet.

Uhrlau: Luckily, some things don't always work in practice the way the terrorists imagined they would. Is it possible in Germany to test a home-made bomb to see if it works? Not really. This is why some travel to the training camps in Afghanistan or look for test sites in North African training camps.

SPIEGEL: How close are the BND and the Office for the Protection of the Constitution agents to these individuals? Do you work with Muslim informers or undercover agents?

Uhrlau: That's a sensitive area. Intelligence agencies should never reveal how good their connections are. But naturally we use connections to Muslim organizations in order to identify changes and processes of radicalization at an early stage.

SPIEGEL: Despite all their efforts, however, the intelligence agencies still haven't managed to truly penetrate into the Islamist groups.

Uhrlau: On the contrary, they do gain access to extremist circles, as the success of the Obershledorn operation demonstrated. We had information about these people at a very early stage, when we were told that two close friends of the two German converts were being trained in Pakistani terror camps. This information was received before an observation team working for the Office for the Protection of the Constitution observed members of this group, on New Year's Eve 2006, possibly scouting out an American military barracks as a target for an attack.

SPIEGEL: This example suggests that various agencies are working closely together.

Uhrlau: With the Joint Counterterrorism Center (GTAZ) in Berlin's Treptow district, which was established in 2004 and includes the BND and 36 other agencies, we created a well-functioning system of communication and cooperation that allows us to detect and prevent terrorist activities early on, and to support the criminal prosecution agencies. The constant presence of representatives of the German states and the various federal agencies, including the Office of the Federal Prosecutor, has led to an extraordinary professionalization of the German security and intelligence community.

SPIEGEL: What exactly does that mean?

Uhrlau: Take, for example, the case that was just described, in which two people believed to be German citizens were arrested in Pakistan. The report was also sent to the GTAZ. There, information was compared: What sort of people were they? Where did they live? Who has further information about them? Are they in contact with others who are already on file somewhere? We exchange this sort of information with the other institutions. That way we make sure that no agency keeps its information to itself.

SPIEGEL: Do you also pass on information you have obtained from your partner intelligence agencies in other countries?

Uhrlau: The challenge posed by Islamist terrorism is global. That's why our cooperation must also be international. This works well. The success in Obschledorn last September, for example, was the result of broad international cooperation between German and American intelligence agencies, as well as with Turkish agencies.

SPIEGEL: And how willing to help are intelligence agencies in Muslim countries?

Uhrlau: We are in regular contact. I travel a great deal within the wide Islamic crisis zone, from Morocco to the Arabian Peninsula and to the northern part of the Persian Gulf.

SPIEGEL: And are you welcome everywhere in the Middle East?

Uhrlau: We are dealing with very varied forms of government in this region. But there is a mutual interest not to allow the terrorists to succeed.

SPIEGEL: Despite everything, isn't the prevention of an attack still a matter of luck?

Uhrlau: Yes, luck is part of it. But the chances improve when we proceed systematically and know our trade.

SPIEGEL: Mr. Uhrlau, thank you for this interview.

Interview conducted by Norbert F. Pötzl and Dieter Bednarz. Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan.

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