SPIEGEL: Was it a mistake to go there in the first place?
Struck: No, it wasn't a mistake. After 9/11, the Americans had to react. If you recall, the Taliban had refused to extradite Osama bin Laden or shut down dozens of terrorist training camps.
. Todenhöfer: Of course the Americans had to react to that attack. But did that mean that they had to bomb Kabul? It's absurd, bombing a country to fight a handful of terrorists who weren't even Afghans. The United States should have used special forces to eliminate Osama bin Laden. Instead, they allowed him to get away at Tora Bora, like in some slapstick comedy. And Taliban leader Mullah Omar was able to escape from them on a motorcycle.
SPIEGEL: What has to happen in Afghanistan so that NATO can withdraw?
Struck: Everyone involved agrees that we have to devote more of our attention to training the Afghan army and the Afghan police force. Unfortunately, this proceeded at a very slow pace in the past. The Bundeswehr is doing a lot more in this respect today.
Todenhöfer: The Afghans are born fighters. They have been the target of attacks for thousands of years. Every 14-year-old boy in Afghanistan can handle a weapon. They don't need a lot of training. They need money. Why should a young, unemployed Afghan join the national army, where he makes less than $100 (€71) a month, if he can earn $400-600 (€285-430) with the Taliban? We have to pay the Afghan national army better. Only Afghans can defeat Afghans.
SPIEGEL: The Americans are now taking the war to Pakistan. Is this the right thing to do, focusing more attention on the neighboring country, which is also unstable?
Todenhöfer: The US attacks are weakening the Pakistani government, because the population increasingly sees it as an accessory or lackey of the Americans. The American drone attacks in Pakistan are constantly killing civilians. Several dozen people attending a funeral were killed in a bombing just last week. The alternative to this madness is that Afghanistan and Pakistan proceed jointly against the Taliban.
Struck: I agree. An Afghan solution is impossible without Pakistan. We must succeed in convincing the Pakistani government to fight the Taliban together with the Afghans. Given the geographic circumstances, however, I believe a military solution is out of the question. In my view, diplomacy is the only option.
SPIEGEL: You want to talk to the Taliban, Mr. Struck?
Struck: Yes, that's the right approach. I have already spoken with Taliban officials in Kunduz. We have to include everyone, or at least the moderate Taliban. I would exclude someone like Mullah Omar. I've examined his record. He's a mass murderer.
Todenhöfer: By the same logic, the Afghans whose family members died in a hail of American bombs would also have to reject talks with the Americans. If you want to exclude radical members of the Taliban from negotiations, it's as if the Americans had said during the peace negotiations with Vietnam: We will only talk to the moderate Viet Cong. That's ridiculous. We need a reconciliation "loya jirga," a tribal council in which all insurgents participate.
SPIEGEL: Would you also negotiate with al-Qaida?
Todenhöfer: Al-Qaida no longer plays a role in Afghanistan. Even the American commander-in-chief, General David Petraeus, says that. Anyone who claims that we would be leaving the country to al-Qaida if we withdraw is spouting nonsense. Criminals rarely return to the hiding place from which they have just been ejected.
SPIEGEL: If we are no longer hunting terrorists, what are we still doing in Afghanistan?
Todenhöfer: We are fighting a national, anti-Western insurgency in Afghanistan. Afghanistan is of geostrategic importance, because it is a place from which one can monitor Russia, India, Pakistan and China. The country is also phenomenally well situated in terms of the politics of natural resources. In fact, the Americans want to build a natural gas pipeline through Afghanistan.
SPIEGEL: You don't seriously believe that German soldiers are dying for economic interests?
Todenhöfer: I believe that our soldiers in Afghanistan are dying out of a falsely interpreted solidarity with the United States -- and that our politicians are perfectly aware of this.
Struck: Our soldiers are not stationed in the Hindu Kush for economic reasons. We want to prevent this country from becoming a failed state, one that constitutes a risk of terrorism for the West. For this reason, I will support continuing the mandate for as long as I remain in the Bundestag. However, I am extremely disappointed with President Karzai. He has not managed to effectively combat corruption.
Todenhöfer: But the international aid organizations are far more corrupt. Western companies are raking in profits of 400, 600 and sometimes 1,000 percent there. Only a fraction of the money passes through the Afghan government, while the rest ends up in private hands. In Kabul, a Western company submitted a bill for $10 million (€7.1 million) -- for a 1.5-kilometer (0.9-mile) metal fence around the Zarnegar Park. Karzai had the matter investigated, and it turned out that this fence was worth no more than $70,000 (€50,000). This doesn't exactly strengthen the Afghan's trust in Western development aid.
SPIEGEL: Public support in Germany for the mission is also declining with every new fatality.
Struck: That's true. The public's lack of recognition of their mission is very upsetting for the soldiers. Afghanistan is far away, and the dangers it poses have not penetrated into German minds.
SPIEGEL: Isn't it your job, as a politician, to explain this mission to the public?
Struck: That's the chancellor's job. Ms. Merkel must make it clear that the soldiers in Afghanistan are risking their lives every day, because we have sent them there.
SPIEGEL: To this day, the mission is being sold to the Germans as a peace mission. No one wants to call it a war. Instead, the Bundeswehr is being portrayed as a relief agency in camouflage.
Struck: I wasn't involved in that. It was wrong. It downplayed the seriousness of the situation.
SPIEGEL: Is it a war, then?
Struck: In the conventional sense, it is not a war, which is only waged between nation states. In Afghanistan, the Taliban are fighting the Afghan people and trying to force their war upon us.
Todenhöfer: One of the main reasons for the West's miscalculations is its ignorance of the Muslim world, which is why I support systematic high-school and university student exchange programs between Western and Muslim countries. Besides, every member of parliament who votes for the war should spend four weeks on the front lines. Just for once, they should experience, in an armored personnel carrier, the dangers they are asking our soldiers and the Afghans to face. If that happened, the number of wars would drop dramatically.
Struck: No Bundestag member votes for the mandate without careful consideration. Everyone is aware of the dangers to which German soldiers, female and male, are being exposed. Nevertheless, I strongly advocate that as many members of parliament as possible travel to Afghanistan. I am always encouraging people in my party's parliamentary group to do so, and many take my advice.
SPIEGEL: When will the goal of the mission have been achieved? Under what conditions can the mission be considered a success?
Todenhöfer: When the Afghan security forces are strong enough to deal with the Taliban and the drug barons on their own, and when the Afghans can develop and shape their country as they please.
Struck: I believe that we must significantly reduce our expectations. Nevertheless, I see no reason to give up and say: "I'm sorry, but unfortunately more than 30 German soldiers have died in vain. We are pulling out."
SPIEGEL: When will the Germans withdraw?
Struck: I'm afraid it could take another 10 years.
Todenhöfer: If it takes that long, it won't be just 35 dead German soldiers, but hundreds. And we will have completely gambled away our credibility within the Muslim world. Our politicians must present the Germans with an honest exit strategy before the Bundestag election in September, so that we can get out of this mess within two or three years at the latest.
SPIEGEL: Mr. Struck, Mr. Todenhöfer, we thank you for this interview.
Interview conducted by Ulrike Demmer and Konstantin von Hammerstein
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