SPIEGEL: In a reference to Guttenberg's title of Freiherr (baron), you said: "It's better to be left-wing and free than to be a 'free lord' and right-wing." Do you have something against the aristocracy?
Müntefering: No. There aren't very many aristocrats left. We have to take care of them.
SPIEGEL: Guttenberg is yet another example of your instincts gone wrong. Singling him, of all people, out for attack was pretty inept. He's popular. You made a mistake.
Müntefering: He has also made mistakes. He didn't impress me during the Opel bailout debate. He showed a lack of imagination, and that influenced my opinion of him.
SPIEGEL: But ordinary people apparently have a different opinion. Guttenberg is currently far more popular than you are.
Müntefering: He's on TV more often. There hasn't been as much written or said about him. He's newer at the game.
SPIEGEL: Are you jealous?
Müntefering: I don't begrudge young people their youth.
SPIEGEL: Another of your principles of election campaigning is: "No personnel discussions during the campaign." But after the European election, you had no qualms about announcing that you plan to stand for the position of party chairman again in November. Why are you violating an ironclad Müntefering rule?
Müntefering: My position was and still is clear. I was just repeating it in that one interview. I'm not just here for one year like some temporary worker. (Ed's note: Müntefering was re-elected as SPD party chairman in October 2008 after the previous head, Kurt Beck, stepped down.)
SPIEGEL: Oddly enough, your announcement triggered resentment among some members of your party. Why aren't they pleased to hear that you want to keep the job?
Müntefering: One or two people might have complained. I don't dispute that. But with close to 520,000 members, that's okay.
SPIEGEL: You once said that the most important thing about a campaign is to have a "candidate who is starting from a strong position, someone that the people want." If one is to believe the opinion polls, you're pretty much out of luck this time.
Müntefering: The SPD's chancellor candidate Frank-Walter Steinmeier gave a great speech at our party convention on June 14, in which he demonstrated that he has direction, knows the ropes and can be chancellor. And he will be.
SPIEGEL: Some party members are trying to give you tips for the campaign. Finance Minister Peer Steinbrück, for example, said: "Attacks are acceptable. But many voters are turned off if it sounds like a small dog is snapping at the leg of your trousers." Did you perceive this as a criticism of yourself?
Müntefering: No, but he's right.
SPIEGEL: So who was he referring to?
Müntefering: I don't know. But one thing is clear: A good election campaign functions like a good orchestra. Someone might come up with the idea that only the trumpet section should be allowed to play, because that person only likes trumpet music. But then it ceases to be an orchestra. Occasionally, there has to be someone banging on the kettledrum or playing a brass instrument. Both Peer and I are quite fond of doing that once in a while. The occasional scuffle is all part of a campaign.
SPIEGEL: It recently became public that you are dating the 29-year-old SPD politician Michelle Schumann. Does the fact that your private life has been in the news a lot lately affect the campaign?
Müntefering: No, and I don't think there has been that much coverage. I have no reason to complain. In fact, I think that most journalists have dealt with the matter appropriately. Some idiot secretly told a newspaper about us. I wasn't looking for that. But after it became public, I had no reason to hide it. I am completely relaxed in that respect.
SPIEGEL: Does it bother you when people in the party make fun of you?
Müntefering: If that were truly the case, I could handle it. But all I hear is: "I wish the two of you all the best!" I think we've become rather a tolerant society.
SPIEGEL: When you brought your girlfriend to a press event on the evening before the SPD convention and referred to her as "Michelle" in your speech, a number of party members griped that you had stolen the spotlight from Frank-Walter Steinmeier. Why do you do such things?
Müntefering: That's nonsense. I had announced ahead of time that Michelle was going to attend the event. At that stage, it was important to us to appear together in public. She was a delegate to the convention, and many people knew about it. If we hadn't done that, there would have been plenty of speculation.
SPIEGEL: Your fellow SPD members are concerned about something else. They worry that people in the SPD's traditional party base would not approve of someone who has a relationship with a woman 40 years his junior.
Müntefering: You're right, there is a big age difference. But no one has mentioned that to me, either. And besides, I don't think people see it that way, in our enlightened society, especially in the SPD. And if so, it ought to change.
SPIEGEL: Are you learning things from your young girlfriend? Do you have a better understanding of what makes the younger generation tick?
Müntefering: In my positions in recent years, I have always been surrounded by people who were 20 or 30 years younger than me. It has always helped me. It enriches your experience. You get to know a different view of life, and different life experiences come into contact with each other. You have to be willing to learn from others and to remain curious.
SPIEGEL: Does that kind of discussion give you a different view of politics?
Müntefering: Perhaps it makes me more sensitive to fields with which I would otherwise have relatively little contact, such as the new information and communication technologies.
SPIEGEL: But you were already fond of sending text messages before.
Müntefering: Certainly, but there is more than just that in the field (of technology).
SPIEGEL: You like to say: Being in opposition is lousy. Why?
Müntefering: The full quote goes like this: "Opposition is part of democracy, but let the others do it. Being in opposition is lousy." Our purpose is to shape policy. If you're in the opposition, you have no opportunity to do so. That's why we are fighting to gain control of the government. And that's why we will continue to be in the government after Sept. 27.
SPIEGEL: But governing also involves a lot of stress. Doesn't your party have the right to recuperate once in a while?
Müntefering: I think it's a big mistake to believe that you can relax when you're in opposition. After all, there aren't any Social Democrats -- and I'm also talking about politicians on the state and local level here -- who say: Okay, now it's time to relax, and we'll be back in the game in four or eight years. Everyone just talks about wanting to move forward, and wanting to shape policy. I understand that. I have to fly the flag at the national level, and I like doing it.
SPIEGEL: Isn't it possible that the SPD has simply governed itself out, and that people are tired of you, no matter how fabulous a campaign you wage?
Müntefering: There is a clear majority of people in Germany who think it's a good thing that the Social Democrats are in the government. Just imagine a government coalition of the Christian Democrats and the business-friendly Free Democratic Party where the FDP gets the Health Ministry. People would start losing their hair.
SPIEGEL: Mr. Müntefering, thank you for this interview.
Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan.
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