Debating Integration: Competing Views on Germany's Immigrants

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SPIEGEL: Mr. Bahners, is this about a collapse of dictatorships? Do you see what's happening in the Arab world now as the same thing that happened in Europe in 1989?

Bahners: That's the great hope. It that happens, people could live under civil conditions with things such as legal protections for people of other faiths. If people there invoke Shariah, it could also mean they want a government that makes laws in keeping with God's commandments. Of course, these laws must develop as part of a political decision-making process. Tareq el-Bishri, the legal philosopher who was appointed chairman of the commission tasked with revising Egypt's constitution, argues that religious freedom is an Islamic tradition in need of rediscovery. An Islamic democracy doesn't have to be viewed as something impossible.

Kelek: That's an empty hope. When I look at the situation of women in Egypt, I'm worried: They may have put oppression under Mubarak behind them, but they might now face oppression under Shariah Islam. Of course, I hope that young people will finally choose a different path, and we should support them in that endeavor. But I am paying very close attention to what the Muslim Brothers are doing -- and I insist on having the right to criticize the social model that the Egyptians ultimately choose.

Bahners: But you've already compared Islam with fascism in the past.

Kelek: If people decide on a system and feel comfortable with it -- whether it's Islam or fascism -- then I'm entitled to criticize that system. Why shouldn't I have that right, Mr. Bahners?

Bahners: Of course you have the right to criticize -- even in very hurtful and incisive terms. What I take issue with is the effect you have on the public.

SPIEGEL: Late last summer, Necla Kelek wasn't the one to have the greatest effect. Instead, that prize went to Thilo Sarrazin, the then-member of the board of Germany's central bank, with his controversial book "Germany Is Doing Itself Away." Why is it that you're more upset about Ms. Kelek's ideas than his?

Bahners: As far as Sarrazin is concerned, I agree with (Chancellor Angela Merkel's comment that) this book is "not helpful." And when it comes to his criticisms of Muslim immigrants, he embraces Ms. Kelek's ideas. Ms. Kelek stirred up the broader public with her book "The Foreign Bride" -- and rightly so because, in it, she sharply criticizes customs such as forced marriages and honor killings. However, large segments of the public -- including many politicians -- have accepted the greatly exaggerated notion that these barbaric and deplorable customs derive from the religious tenets of Islam. Ms. Kelek has made a considerable contribution to furthering this phantom conception.

Kelek: What you call a "phantom" actually helped lead then-Interior Minister Wolfgang Schäuble to convene the Islam Conference (in 2006) to address these issues. Laws have been changed, and the public has begun talking about schools with large populations of immigrant students. We have achieved a lot. This isn't a "phantom;" it's a reality, an Islamic reality.

Bahners: But you manipulate the public…

Kelek: …and you accuse it of being racist.

Bahners: No!

Kelek: I play a role in making sure that certain problems are finally taken seriously. We have young people who are lost because their parents are praying for the afterlife rather than taking care of their children. These parents would rather send their children to a Koran school than ensure that they live active lives in and become a part of German society. As a sociologist, I analyze what I see in addition to what I've experienced in person. I'm trying to find clear answers, but you claim that I incite resentment -- and that's because you have no faith in German civil society.

Bahners: You emphasize authoritarian control. I have a lot of faith in civil society, and that's why I hope that this phantom conception -- these dark myths about the Islamic system that every Muslim supposedly carries in his DNA -- will vanish as quickly as it arose.

Kelek: Mr. Bahner, how can you ignore the fact that Muslim girls are not allowed to take part in swimming lessons, that they are not allowed to make friends with German girls, and that they have to be guarded by their brothers instead of being able to learn things in school that will help them make a future for themselves in Germany?

Bahners: Those are extremely sweeping generalizations because the so-called "facts" in your books, Ms. Kelek, consist of anecdotes, which are then exaggerated through your radical criticism of religion. For years, you've claimed that there is a growing number of lawsuits over whether Muslim girls should have to take part in swimming lessons. This is completely made up; it's simply not true. In reality, the number of these kinds of lawsuits is extremely small. In most cases, the problems are resolved in face-to-face meetings with the parents.

Kelek: How many Muslims do you know? What gives you the right to say I don't know anything about real life?

Bahners: In 2006, at the behest of the Islam Conference, you submitted an expert opinion on the problem of girls being removed from physical-education and swimming classes. It turned out that it was based on rumors rather than on solid data.

Kelek: Did you ask about this at any schools?

Bahners: Fellow journalist Martin Spiewak from (the center-left weekly newspaper) Die Zeit made inquiries at the schools and found evidence contradicting your account. The (state) education ministries are unanimous in their view that the problem is not significant. Instead of empirical evidence, you offer conspiracy theories holding that a select group of do-gooders is making sure we're not allowed to talk about the problems.

SPIEGEL: Ms. Kelek, are your "facts" anything more than mere impressions?

Kelek: While composing my expert opinion, I went to several schools and discovered that they no longer even offered swimming classes. The teachers told me the girls didn't come to class even when they were held. Mr. Bahners, I accuse you of never having spoken with Muslims. You have never gotten in touch with me once. I have been writing for the features section of the (center-right daily) Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung for five years. Even though you're the editor of that section, you've avoided all contact with me.

Bahners: That's completely untrue. I have not avoided any discussions with you. Please don't spread a rumor that I've refused to shake your hand!

Kelek: Well, I'm talking about something else. You've been trying to find out what reasons I have for strongly criticizing Islam. In your book, you analyze me and conclude that I want to do away with Islam because I had a problem with my father for abandoning my family. That's just armchair psychology. Even after having known me for years as a journalist, you accused me of something this banal. That was very hurtful. In this country, people try too often to find some private information they can discredit someone with.

Bahners: You yourself make your life story a subject in your books; you use it to substantiate your theories. In your book "The Foreign Bride," you describe your father as a secular Muslim through and through and as a great admirer of (Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, the secular founder of modern Turkey). But when he goes to Germany, the violence of the Islamic system erupts from within him. In your book, your father is your star witness for this violence within Islam, which continues to overcome even those who have liberated themselves from it. Given these facts, it seemed natural to assume that the happiness and freedom you felt after your father left the family -- and which you describe so enthusiastically -- was being used as a literary trope for what you desire for all other Muslims.

Kelek: I am who I am. My name is Necla Kelek. I report from my own life, and I use it to illustrate what I have to say about a system. I am not a member of any party or association. I maintain the right to state my opinion, as I am permitted to do in this country. There are no cliques, no networks, no unwritten agreements.

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• Part 1: Competing Views on Germany's Immigrants
• Part 2: A Difference of Facts and Opinions
• Part 3: Who's the One Sowing Panic?