SPIEGEL Interview with Daniel Jonah Goldhagen: 'Mass Slaughter Is a Systemic Problem of the Modern World'

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Goldhagen: Does it? Any regime that has been declared to be undertaking eliminationist assaults should be suspended immediately from all international institutions. It should be declared that the leaders of these countries, the top political leadership and all high level subordinates, are outlaws and are subject to being killed.

SPIEGEL: You think murder is the answer?

Goldhagen: The perpetrators conceive of it as a war. They're making war on an identifiable part of humanity, which is like making war on humanity as a whole. And if they are making war, the rules of war apply. We should encourage those who can to kill them. This may sound radical, but it is a far more effective, less-costly and, believe or not, likely solution than sending in a UN or some other rapid reaction force.

Goldhagen: I'm not worried that this is going to lead to a rash of invasions of other countries. The problem is not over-eagerness. The problem is the absence of practically any will or any action to save the lives of people being exterminated. And the problem is that there is no provision in international law that allows for countries to violate the sovereignty of another. International law allows for leaders to slaughter their own people unless the UN calls it genocide, which is not going to happen. International law on this issue is utterly bankrupt.

SPIEGEL: The US marched into Iraq under the guise of protecting human rights.

Goldhagen: ... which wasn't really the reason for the invasion.

SPIEGEL: They toppled the regime and hanged Saddam Hussein. And if you ask around at the United Nations and others involved in international politics, you will hear them say that this invasion was harmful to the global community. Trust in the rules that should apply to all has been violated as has the will to act together.

Goldhagen: You are right. I'd be happy with functioning international law. The problem is that it won't come about any time soon. I asked the Justice Minister of Rwanda, Tharcisse Karugarama, whether the genocide would have been prevented had bounties been placed on the heads of the political leaders and they knew it. He said, "Definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely, many times definitely.... If people knew that at the end of the day they'll be the losers, they never invest in losing an enterprise."

SPIEGEL: Mr. Goldhagen, thank you very much for taking the time to speak with us.

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• Part 1: 'Mass Slaughter Is a Systemic Problem of the Modern World'
• Part 2: 'The Past Is Far Less Threatening in Germany Today'
• Part 3: 'Eliminationism Has Become an Integral Part of the Political Repertoire of the Modern World'
• Part 4: 'International Law on the Issue of Mass Slaughter Is Utterly Bankrupt'