Spiegel Interview with Desmond Tutu

'It Takes Generations before People Forget'

Desmond Tutu, Peace Nobel Prize winner and former Archbishop of Cape Town, talks about his criticism of the South African government, the difficult legacy of colonialism, and Africa’s problems in the fight against wars and illness.

REUTERS

Desmond Tutu: Each time something happens in Africa, the response is: That's typical of Africa. Nobody says: this is just the Ivory Coast's problem.

SPIEGEL:

Mr. Archbishop, for decades you fought against Apartheid alongside the current South African President, Thabo Mbeki. Now there appears to be serious friction between the two of you. What has gone wrong with this usually harmonious relationship?

Tutu: Well, I merely criticized him a little. In a democracy, that is normal. I just speak in the manner that I believe God wants me to speak. I just have to live with the fact that it's impossible to always please everyone.

SPIEGEL: What was the subject of your dispute?

Tutu: In a speech honoring Nelson Mandela, I criticized a few points that were important to me. It is my opinion, for example, that the government should have taken action much sooner in fighting the spread of the AIDS epidemic.

SPIEGEL: In public, Thabo Mbeki questioned the connection between the HIV virus and the AIDS disease. ...

Tutu: ... and unfortunately we wasted a lot of time instead of launching a powerful campaign. But there are other issues in this country for which we must find a solution. Poverty, for example.

SPIEGEL: You publicly asked what "Black Economic Empowerment," the inclusion of blacks in the economy, was worth if "not the vast majority but a small elite" benefited?

Tutu: There are still far too many fellow countrymen who are living in incredible poverty while others get richer. I'm not a member of the governing party, ANC. That's why I feel free to say what I think. That's not new: Even under Mandela's presidency, I criticized the ANC functionaries for their high salaries.

SPIEGEL: Even though you play down the conflict with Mbeke, it still occupied the media's attention for weeks. The president made it understood that he considers you a liar and a charlatan.

Tutu: There was a pretty strong reaction. But I have experience in fighting. I said to myself: "Put on your small steel helmet and just wait for whatever may happen. I know the price that has to be paid if you decide to step into the public light.

SPIEGEL: But overall, do you think the government's performance has been positive?

Tutu: If I had to issue a report card, it would get good grades. It has really done a brilliant job. If I think back about what types of fears were prevalent here just over ten years ago when Apartheid collapsed....

SPIEGEL: ... at the time, many expected that South Africa would drown in blood.

Tutu: And today black and white kids go to school together and no policeman has to escort them. By contrast, these days, when children are escorted to school by police, it is in Northern Ireland, in Europe. Or look at Russia! If you compare the brutal events in the former Soviet Union with the situation in South Africa, then this looks more like a Sunday picnic.

SPIEGEL: Unfortunately, that's not the case in all African countries. Just a few years ago, Zimbabwe felt it was on the right track as well....

Tutu: ... and that's another country once ruled by a racist white regime. In Rhodesia, it took a brutal bush war to bring freedom. Today, however, Robert Mugabe's government is violating human rights.

SPIEGEL: Mugabe publicly called you an evil little bishop.

Tutu: That's only because I said that what is happening in Zimbabwe is completely unacceptable -- regardless of the merits that the government has earned in the past.

SPIEGEL: But how do you explain why Mugabe enjoys such broad acceptance in Africa? In a vote for the African of the century, organized by a magazine, Mugabe landed in third place -- just behind Nelson Mandela and Ghana's former president, Kwame Nkrumah.

Tutu: How was it possible that Hitler once garnered so much support in Germany or, in more recent history, Milosevic in Serbia? The mechanisms are the same everywhere, this is certainly no African phenomenon. But it's true: Mugabe enjoys a lot of support in Africa. A lot of people here idealize him. They say: Great, he takes the land from the whites, he beats up on the whites. The people gain a sense of satisfaction from that. However, don't forget how brutal the oppression by whites was in Rhodesia. It takes generations before people forget that. They suck up the anger in their mother's milk.