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  Spiegel Interview with Desmond Tutu: 'It Takes Generations before People Forget'

Spiegel Interview with Desmond Tutu 'It Takes Generations before People Forget'

Part 2: Part Two: Hatred against whites is increasing.

SPIEGEL: Across the continent, hate against whites is currently being stirred, not only in Zimbabwe. The same is happening Namibia, and now some radical slogans can even be heard in Kenya.

Tutu: In Kenya, even back in the 1960s when the country gained independence following the Mau Mau's intense struggle for freedom, people feared the worst. Then Jomo Kenyatta led the country to a peaceful future. Similar fears existed in Namibia in 1990. Fortunately, they, too, were unfounded.

SPIEGEL: By contrast, in the Ivory Coast, there recently were violent clashes. Thousands of French left the country.

Tutu: Europe became rich because it exploited Africa; and the Africans know that. And when an unscrupulous politician has a means of inciting the people, then he will also use it. But it's still quite strange: Each time something happens in Africa, the response is: That's typical of Africa. Nobody says: this is just the Ivory Coast's problem. When the Basques are carrying out murders in Spain, you don't see us claiming that that's typically European.

SPIEGEL: Compared to Africa, Europe's problems seem rather harmless.

Tutu: In its history, Europe has committed so many massacres and horrors that it should bow its own head in shame. The war in Bosnia isn't that far in the past. And someday the Americans will also have to confront their own history: slavery and the exploitation of the native Americans. The Americans should also establish a Truth and Reconciliation Commission like we had here. ....

SPIEGEL: ... a body that you headed as chairman for a long time. But even in South Africa the change doesn't seem to have worked all that well. Over the past ten years, more than 1,500 white farmers were killed here.

Tutu: Despite all the success, we still have a long road ahead of us. At the same time, 300 years of colonial and racist oppression are behind us, too. It's a blessing that South Africa has a man like Nelson Mandela.

SPIEGEL: South Africa's last white president, Frederick Willem De Klerk, says the country could've ended up in a civil war if it hadn't been for Nelson Mandela.

Tutu: At the time, as Mandela decided to negotiate with the apartheid regime, not all of his followers were convinced that his policy towards the whites was the right one. But Mandela enjoyed enough authority to enforce this policy of reconciliation. Sometimes the people say: what a tragedy that the man sat in jail for 27 years. Wasted time! But believe me: The imprisonment on Robben Island....

SPIEGEL: ... you are referring to the prison island off the coast of Cape Town...

Tutu: ... that turned him into the magnificent person that he is today. Suffering can embitter a person, but it can also help an individual grow into a big-hearted, compassionate human being. Fortunately for South Africa, the latter happened. Before Nelson Mandela was arrested in 1962, he was an angry, relatively young man. He founded the ANC's military wing. When he was released, he surprised everyone because he was talking about reconciliation and forgiveness and not about revenge.

SPIEGEL: Could the strong reactions to your criticism of the government also be a sign that the ANC is having an identity crisis right now?

Tutu: The white oppression earlier was so unjust that it was easy to find a common ground. We wanted a better world, and it wasn't so important which political wing one belonged to. Today, everything is different, and at times I think that God was very friendly in sending me into retirement early enough, in 1996. The problems are growing.

SPIEGEL: Nevertheless, the ANC won 75 percent of the votes in the last election.

Tutu: The ANC refers to itself as a "Broad Church," a kind of umbrella group. It wants to unify everyone under its umbrella, even the communists. However, before long, this alliance will run into problems because, in the long term, it is lacking unifying enemies.

SPIEGEL: Are you seriously saying that the concepts of the enemy are missing here?

Tutu: Unfortunately, that's the way the world is. Ronald Reagan was successful because he declared the Soviet Union as the big enemy and talked about the "empire of evil." Things aren't any different with current U.S. President George W. Bush. He talks about rogue states and has success with it. All of the sudden, the people are feeling safer and unified in the war on terror. But, in reality, we should probably be thinking about Jesus' word more often: we are all one family.

SPIEGEL: Mr. Tutu, thank you for this interview.

Interview conducted by Stefan Aust and Thilo Thielke in Cape Town.

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