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SPIEGEL Interview with Jordan's King Abdullah II

"If there Is a Civil War in Iraq, Everyone Will Pay a Price"

Jordan's King Abdullah II discusses the way out of the chaotic situation in Iraq, successes in the war against terror and the necessity of negotiations with Tehran's mullahs.

SPIEGEL: Your Majesty, the terrorist Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi posed a threat not only to Iraq, but also to your country. Now he is dead. Has the Middle East become a safer place?

King Abdullah II: One chapter was closed, but terrorism and extremism are going to continue. Al-Zarqawi will be replaced by somebody else, whoever it will be. Obviously for Jordanians because of the murder of 60 people here ...

SPIEGEL: ... in November, when suicide bombers attacked three hotels in Amman.

King Abdullah: It brings us a closure and a reason to move on. That part may be over. But it’s a tactical game in the fight against terrorism. At the end of the day we want to bring stability and hope to Iraq. That’s the only way to defeat terrorism.

SPIEGEL: Is it true that Jordanian intelligence played a decisive role in tracking al-Zarqawi down?

King Abdullah II: We have played a role and this is not something new. We have been working with the international community not only in relation to al-Zarqawi, but in tracking down many other terrorists as well. Historically, with Germany we have done a lot of close work. This was part of a global strategy.

SPIEGEL: Even after his death al-Zarqawi continued to cause trouble. Four members of the Jordanian parliament, belonging to the Islamic Action Front paid condolences to his family. They called him a hero, a martyr, and even a mujahedeen. Is the stability of your country endangered?

King Abdullah II: No, not at all.There are some elements in our society who are misguided individuals. Al -Zarqawi was a mass murderer, not only killing innocent people in Jordan, but also in Iraq and elsewhere. I cannot fathom how some people can make this man a hero. Forget about actions he has taken against people in uniform. There are people in Jordan, Iraq and some other countries who have suffered the loss of civilians, men, women and children. As for the Islamic movement, I believe that when we look at Jordan, the overwhelming majority are moderate, peace-loving people. I think the debate in our society now is that people have to agree on zero-tolerance to terrorism. We have to identify to everybody what terrorism is, and this is the message from Amman: We cannot put up with extremism any more. We want to reach out to the overwhelming majority of moderate Muslims throughout the world. And obviously, the message from Amman is extremely important -- not just for the Islamic world, but also in reaching out to Europe, because you have Muslim communities in your countries. The way I look at Muslims in Germany, for example, is that the country offers them protection and the same rights as any other community inside Germany, and in return, they need to abide to the loyalty of the state. They may be Muslims, but they should be proud Germans, too. This is the message.

SPIEGEL: Did those four members of parliament cross a red line?

King Abdullah II: I don’t think that any tolerance should be given to people who incite and support terrorism in any form, and I think this is not just true of Jordan, but also of the international community. If people are actively supporting and encouraging terrorism, then they're on the other side of the fence. What we're saying as a part of Jordan -- as a part of the Amman message to the Islamic world, but also reaching out to the Western world -- is that we all have to decide what is humanity, and what is the commonality between Muslims, Christians and Jews, God-fearing people who believe, you know, good as opposed to evil. And I think that's the line we draw, not just for Jordan but for all countries.

SPIEGEL: What do you do in order to draw the line?

King Abdullah II: I'm having a lunch today with leaders of my community, and there will be members of the Muslim Brotherhood who, at the end of the day, are moderates. In my discussions with the Muslim Brotherhood here, I will tell them that I don't believe that the majority of you (believe you have the right to kill people who do not share your beliefs), I believe that the overwhelming majority of you are moderate, but you have to show the line. If you believe that the killing of innocent people is right, then you are not part of my future. And so this is the interaction that we are having with society at the moment.

SPIEGEL: Are you going to re-define your relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood?

King Abdulah II: They have to redefine their relationship with us. They have been working in a gray area in recent decades. I think society throughout the world now has to decide what is good and what is evil. I believe that the majority of the Brotherhood wants a good future for this country, and a good future for their children. I think that we can all work as a team. But there are some principles. Takfîr is not one of them. (Takfir describes the process of declaring another person as an apostate. Radical Islamists have used this method in the past to justify fighting or killing other Muslims.)

SPIEGEL: Is Iraq defining the future of your country and other countries in the Middle East?

King Abdullah II: What happens in Iraq is having an effect on all of us. It is a consequence of the make-up of Iraq, and the borders that surround Iraq. That is why we all pray that Iraq will move in the right direction. I think we have seen some successes, at least when it comes to elections. A government has been formed, it has to be a national unity government which accepts everybody as part of the future Iraq. Whoever assumes the post of defense or interior minister, should not represent a specific sect, but should represent all Iraqis. If Iraq is alright, it will be immediately part of the international community. But if Iraq continues its secterian violence, God forbid it, it will lead to a civil war. That is going to hurt all in the region. Iran obviously has some interest in the future of Iraq, the Turks have an issue with the Kurds, we have relationships in Iraq. If there is a civil war in Iraq , everybody will pay a price for it. No matter how far away, we will all feel the effects.

SPIEGEL: Do you think that Prime Minister Nouri al-Malaki will have a better chance of getting things done than his predecessor?

King Abdullah II: I can say "so far, so good." He has a lot of work ahead of him. He needs the support of all of us. Jordan will do all it can to support the government to be able to move foreward. We hope that others in the region will also help the Iraqis.

SPIEGEL: What are the lessons to be learned from the Iraq fiasco -- stability first, democracy second?

King Abdullah II: I look back on our Jordanian experience. We concentrated on socio-economic aspects to make sure that individuals' stomachs were full. If a society is comfortable economically and socially, we can make great strides politically.

SPIEGEL: That's more or less what people in the West thought up until now.

King Abdullah II: Look at Iraq: They have elections, whilst people are dying every day, that’s the problem. So, we had an election process, and that is a good sign. But unless there is stability, Iraq is not going to have the future we wished for it. Therefore, stability and reform have to go hand in hand. So we do not have civil war, we do not have conflict. In our view, stability is socio-economic. If you achieve that, you can move on with the political process.

SPIEGEL: Iran profits from the troubles in neighboring Iraq. Is Iran merely making the problems worse or can it help to solve them?

King Abdullah: What is very interesting over the past several weeks is that European countries have been closely working with the United States to try and have dialogue with Iran. If I was in Iranian shoes, I would consider it very good to have dialogue. Because if you do not have dialogue you have misunderstanding. I am encouraging all sides to have dialogue, to be able to talk about all issues related to Iran. It is not just Iraq, there are issues of oil, the nuclear program, relations with certain organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah and others. But there have to be benchmarks for dialogue and expectations. Open-ended dialogue does not get us anywhere. I hope that the Iranians, the Europeans and the Americans will have a strategy that will lead to something constructive.

SPIEGEL: One year ago, we interviewed Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf. When asked about the Iranian's intentions, he said: "They are very keen on the bomb." Do you share this view?

King Abdullah: I have been told (by the Iranians) that they want it (the nuclear program) for peaceful purposes. Others say they are going in the direction of producing certain components that may be part of a bomb. So I hope the Iranian program will be a peaceful one and will not create a new crisis. A nuclear arms race is the last thing that the region needs.

SPIEGEL: Israel is already a nuclear power.

King Abdullah II: I've always believed in a nuclear free zone in the Middle East. We do not need such things in an area with such an amount of instability, and which has so many issues that need to be settled in the region.

SPIEGEL: What would be worse -- a nuclear armed Iran or an attack on Iran in order to prevent it from aquiring nuclear weapons?

King Abdullah II: Any action leads to reaction. If Iran is attacked, it would retaliate somehow, and you can never plan any operation and know that you can contain it. Any military action will be detrimental to all of us in the region.

SPIEGEL: Iran apparently assumes that the United States government is politically weak and that its people do not have the will to attack.

King Abdullah II: It is always dangerous to underestimate anybody. The same could be said from the other side in view of Iran threatening others. We have to be honest and straightforward with each other. When we start to underestimate the opposition we get into trouble.

SPIEGEL: What's the most pressing problem in the Middle East -- Iraq or the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis?

King Abdullah II: I have always said that the core problem is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I still believe that it is.

SPIEGEL: You don't think it has shifted to Iraq?

King Abdullah II: We cannot belittle what is happening in Iraq. We have two major issues we have to deal with -- both of importance. The main issue in the long-term is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, simply because if we do not resolve it, we cannot resolve the Israeli-Arab issue. That’s why I think it has much more implications on the future of this region. Peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians does not stop at the Jordan River or the Golan Heights or the Sinai. Peace for Israels means -- as far as I am concerned -- its inclusion in the Middle East from Morocco at the Atlantic Ocean all the way to the Gulf and the Indian Ocean. If we have an interim solution that may not give the Palestinians the aspirations they hope for, my concern is that we may not be able to get an Arab-Israeli peace. Therefore, we spare no effort in order to spare a coming generation another ten years of conflict.

SPIEGEL: Five years ago you expelled the Hamas exile leaders from Jordan. You don’t really seem to have much faith in Hamas's ability to contribute to peace.

King Abdullah II: We have to differentiate between Hamas internal and Hamas external. Hamas on the ground has been elected by the majority of voters. They are now in a position of government. With such responsibilities, you have to be responsible and know how to deal with things. Hamas realizes this. It is very easy to be in the outside saying slogans. Now they have to be there for the future of the Palestinians. They have to show responsibility in their position as government. I hope that the situation on the ground will change some of their stances.

SPIEGEL: Right now, Hamas and Fatah seem to be on the brink of a civil war.

King Abdullah II: What we have seen in the past couple of days between Fatah and Hamas is extremely dangerous. At a time when Palestinians endure so much suffering, they need to be one.

SPIEGEL: For many Westerners, the orgy of self-destruction -- the storming of parliament, the exchange of gunfire and kidnappings -- is hard to understand.

King Abdullah II: Political organizations and parties are looking after their own personal ambitions. Each one is thinking about its own future as opposed to the future of its people. We want to encourage Hamas to be able to move forward. The Israelis, too, have to be flexible enough in order to guarantee a future for the Palestinian people. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said that he believes in the peace process and the road map and that he wants to give it a chance. We all should encourage the Palestinians and the Israelis to concentrate on the great final goal of a genuine peace, with a secure Israel, living side by side with a viable, independent Palestinian state.

SPIEGEL: Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas wants to hold a referendum in the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip in the hope that the majority of Palestinians will accept direct negotiations with Israel on the basis of the existing agreements.

King Abdullah II: I hope that there's going to be a positive outcome for the referendum, because I think it will get the Palestinians back on track and move them in the right direction.

SPIEGEL: This week, you are going to host a Nobel Laureates meeting for the second time. Are you going to offer a new peace initiative?

King Abdullah II: Part of the discussions with the Nobel Laureates will be centered around the Israeli-Palestinian issue. When so many brilliant minds come together maybe they could come up with formulas and ideas completely out of the box. Mahmoud Abbas and Ehud Olmert have been invited. So, there may be an opportunity for them to exchange views with the best and the brightest minds that the world has to offer.

SPIEGEL: Your Majesty, we thank you for this interview.

Interview conducted by the SPIEGEL editors Joachim Preuss, Gerhard Spörl and Volkhard Windfuhr.