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  SPIEGEL Interview with Kofi Annan: "We Are a Bit Envious of FIFA"

SPIEGEL Interview with Kofi Annan "We Are a Bit Envious of FIFA"

Part 2: Next page: "We all learned important lessons in Iraq."

SPIEGEL: The biggest team, the United States, likes to play by its own rules.

Annan: There is a certain tendency on the part of some Americans to treat the UN as a multilateralism à la carte where you pick and choose where it suits you and when it doesn't suit you, you pull back. In Iraq, they want us to work closely with the Iraqis and lead an international compact for economic reform. They are within the UN on Iran and they are working closely with us on avian flu. In these cases they are working very closely with us because they have nowhere else to go. You cannot put together a coalition of the willing.

SPIEGEL: Have the Americans changed their behavior as a result of problems in Iraq?

Annan: There has been a very important lesson that everyone has learned from Iraq. Future American administrations will be much more hesitant to embark on a military action. It will also make Congress much more reluctant to appove military action and much more demanding of the justification and rationale for going to war.

SPIEGEL: It seems that every US generation in recent history has had to go through the experience of losing a war.

Annan: Yes, and it is a bit sad to put it that way. One has to learn from history. Quite frankly, it is almost impossible to have a sense of vision without a sense of history. If history is learned, then it doesn't have to repeat itself over generations.

SPIEGEL: The overwhelming majority of countries believe that the Security Council needs to be reformed, but initial efforts to bring about reforms have failed. Will Germany still get a permanent seat on the Security Council in the foreseeable future?

Annan: I knew you would ask this question. In my report to the Security Council, I gave them two options: One was to create six additional permanent seats or six non-permanent seats. I did not indicate who should get it, but as the debate went on it became clear that the G-4 (Germany, Japan, Brazil and India) came together and hoped the Africans would join them, but the Africans could not decide which two (countries) would join them and get the seats. There were two blocks, those who call themselves "Uniting for Consensus" who did not want permanent seats and the G-4 who wanted permanent seats.

SPIEGEL: So the decision is being postponed indefinitely?

Annan: If they were to somehow find a compromise, it would gather a vast majority of the membership around it and you would have Security Council reform in a relatively short period of time. If the two stick to their position, however, it could be difficult. At a recent lunch, I told 30 ambassadors they had a choice as to what they do about the perceived imbalance of power in the organization. Either they decide that they will seek a compromise that will get us to the table and expand the council and then look for the perfect solution. Or they decide to seek the perfect solution and stay outside the Council chamber until they find it. But they will not find that solution for a long time. If they seek a compromise, we will have Security Council reform.

SPIEGEL: Are you confident that Germany will receive its seat?

Annan: Yes, I believe Germany will receive a seat.

SPIEGEL: Despite the experiences of Rwanda and Srebrenica, genocide seems to be taking place once again, this time in Darfur. Why must the UN respond with such incredible helplessness?

Annan: You can also add Somalia to that list, where we had a huge force, which later withdrew. Since then, no international group has wanted to go and no country has been prepared to put troops in Somalia. Still, we worry that if we allow countries to become failed states, as happened in Afghanistan, terrorists can take them over. In Darfur, the whole world is aware of what is happening. Unlike Srebrenica or Rwanda, where some said they did not know what was going on, here the world is watching. The international community wants to do something. I urged Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir to allow the UN force to be deployed. To be effective we need the support of the Sudanese government, but that is not forthcoming. The Sudanese have developed suspicians about this new deployment, they suspect it is a Trojan horse. They fear big powers have plans to hide behind the UN and stay forever. We are working hard with the Sudanese to try to get them to agree and to know that we are coming to help them.

SPIEGEL: Wouldn't it work without their consent?

Annan: Most governments only want to deploy a peacekeeping force where there is a peace agreement and there is peace to keep. They are very hesitant about putting their men and women in harm's way. It is extremely difficult to get the troops if you do not have the consent of the country where you are deploying.

SPIEGEL: But once you have received this consent, do you take steps to ensure that it can't be withdrawn too quickly again? You apparently plan to keep the European troops in Congo longer than only until Christmas.

Annan: The EUFOR (European Union Force) operation in Congo is a great addition to our operations in the country. It will help provide stability in the preparation of the elections. It shows the solidarity and commitment of Germany and Europe to the operations in Africa. The force has a fixed time commitment, but what is important is that, even after EUFOR leaves, the international community remains engaged. Peacebuilding is a medium- and long-term project.

SPIEGEL: Do you sometimes wish that you had your own army?

Annan: That would be ideal, but nobody wants to pay for it. And it raises plenty of legal issues and I'm not sure a number of the Big Boys would want to have a fairly independent army at the disposal of the UN, and some smaller countries may also be nervous. And they would want to have control. In a way that would be great. The way we are forced to operate now is kind of like telling the mayor of Berlin: we know you need a firehouse, but don't worry, we will build you one when the fire breaks out.

SPIEGEL: Mr. Secretary General, we thank you for this interview.

Interview conducted by SPIEGEL editors Stefan Aust, Hans Hoyng and Georg Mascolo.

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