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NATO Interview

"Russia Sees Itself as a Country that Is Self-Sufficient"

In an interview with SPIEGEL, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov discusses Moscow's relationship with NATO, the situation in Afghanistan and the aid his country has provided to Iran's nuclear program.

SPIEGEL: Mr. Minister, NATO is holding its summit meeting in Latvia this week, which will make it the first meeting of its kind on the soil of a former Soviet republic. Do you, as the Russian defense minister, perceive this is as a provocation?

Ivanov: No. The Baltic countries are sovereign nations. They have the right to decide which military and political bloc they want to be a part of. Of course, some Russians feel uneasy about the fact that a NATO summit is taking place so close to St. Petersburg. But I take a more relaxed view. If NATO had staged a major military maneuver in Latvia, with tanks and aircraft, it would certainly have triggered concern within the Russian military.

SPIEGEL: That sounds comforting. But the military newspaper Red Star quoted you last week as commenting as follows on NATO expansion plans: "We were simply deceived." How so?

Ivanov: Let's think back to German reunification. In 1990 I was still quite young and working as a simple employee in Soviet intelligence abroad. I won't tell you exactly where, but it was in Europe. We were told at the time that NATO would not expand its military structures in the direction of the Soviet Union. Then came the first wave of NATO expansion, followed by the second. And each time we saw the military infrastructure gradually coming closer to the former Soviet Union. As far as the Baltic states are concerned, they are small countries in a region that is especially free of conflict and tension, militarily speaking. We do not understand why NATO needs its own military infrastructure in this region. Does it intend to wage war against terrorism or influence operations in Afghanistan from there?

SPIEGEL: When the Poles wanted NATO membership, the alliance could hardly have turned them down.

Ivanov: We are interested in knowing what the purpose of developing a military infrastructure in the region could be. After all, every NATO member must build air bases where it is asked to do so, structure its armed forces accordingly and develop intervention forces.

SPIEGEL: And because Poland has since bought American F-16 fighter jets and Washington plans to develop a missile defense system there, you will now station air defense systems in neighboring Belarus. Is a new Cold War developing between Russia and the West?

Ivanov: No. That, at least, is not our goal. We have reduced the number of troops and weapons in the Leningrad military district by more than half since the end of the Cold War. I see no point in Russia even deploying major troop concentrations to the region. We need them in other parts of the country -- in the south and in the Far East. But as far as the American aircraft in Poland are concerned, I should remind you that F-16s are attack aircraft, whereas our S-300 air defense system is only designed to defend our own territory. These missiles cannot be used against land-based targets.

SPIEGEL: There have also been discordant notes in your relationship with the European Union. At the summit in Helsinki, President (Vladimir) Putin refused to lift Russia's embargo against Polish meat shipments.

Ivanov: I am actually the defense minister, so meat is not exactly my field. This is a question of Russian-Polish relations, not our relationship to the EU.

SPIEGEL: But Poland is also an EU member. Are we mistaken in having the impression that Russia derives some satisfaction from defying the EU as long as Poland is unable to come to terms with its partners?

Ivanov: That's a problem for Poland and the European Union. We have been developing our relationship with the EU for years. We derive about half of our foreign trade revenues from the EU. In other words, the Russians are not distancing themselves. Indeed, the Russians are already deeply involved with the West.

SPIEGEL: Nevertheless, we have noticed a new self-confidence in your country and are hearing nationalist, anti-Western rhetoric.

Ivanov: There are certainly anti-Western sentiments, especially in the less well-off segments of Russian society. Nowadays Russia sees itself as a country that is self-sufficient, and as a state with a growing economy that, historically speaking, is part of both Europe and Asia. And because of its huge territory, Russia must devote a great deal of attention to security. Our standard of living is still too low and the structure of our economy is too one-dimensional. Unlike Saudi Arabia or Kuwait, we cannot live on oil alone. But when it comes to culture, religion and mentality, most Russians identify with Europe.

SPIEGEL: Many Russians are pleased to see the country reasserting itself as a major military power…

Ivanov: … but no longer at Cold War levels.

SPIEGEL: Nevertheless, Moscow is not pleased to see that the Americans, for example, are operating military bases in Russia's backyard in Central Asia. You consented to these bases after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Do you now regret Russia's support for America's war on terror?

Ivanov: No, at least not when it comes to Afghanistan. We were dealing with terrorism long before Sept. 11. We were confronted with it in Chechnya. At issue is an entire chain of instability that begins in Indonesia and continues into Kosovo in the heart of Europe. Russia already pointed out in 1999 that the Taliban would become a problem. For years, we were practically the only country that recognized the full scope of the problem. That was why we provided money and weapons to the Afghan Northern Alliance, which later marched into Kabul. Believe me, Russia certainly knows its way around when it comes Afghanistan.