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NATO Interview

"Russia Sees Itself as a Country that Is Self-Sufficient"

Part 2

SPIEGEL: How should the situation continue in Afghanistan? Should the West leave the country? Or should it remain in Afghanistan to prevent the same thing from happening there that happened 10 years ago?

Ivanov: We supported the ISAF (International Security Assistance Force) operation from the very beginning. Not with our own soldiers, of course. That would be like the Americans marching back into Vietnam with their own troops today. But we have provided the government of President Hamid Karzai with $200 million in weapons and equipment so far. Many Russian citizens were surprised that we allowed the German armed forces -- and the French -- free passage through our country to Afghanistan. But, of course, I cannot give the German military any advice on what it should or should not do in Afghanistan.

SPIEGEL: If NATO's mission fails it will also affect Russia.

Ivanov: We are concerned about this, of course. The current situation in Afghanistan is indeed very reminiscent of the late 1980s when the Soviet Union was involved there. It is painful to talk about it, but even with its 110,000 elite soldiers, the Soviet Union never managed to gain control over the entire Afghan territory. I am firmly convinced that the security situation will never improve until you are able to very effectively monitor the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

SPIEGEL: That seems close to impossible.

Ivanov: It's also difficult because Pakistan is a US ally. And because, at the same time, it is not an entirely democratic state, and is a state that possesses weapons of mass destruction and is even involved in proliferation -- to North Korea, for example.

SPIEGEL: That brings us to the issue of Iran. While the West discusses sanctions against Tehran, Russia supplies the country with anti-aircraft missiles. How will your country react if the UN does in fact decide to impose sanctions?

Ivanov: Think about all the neighbors Russia has! In this respect, I would certainly trade places with Germany. We border North Korea, Afghanistan and Iran, and Pakistan isn't much farther away.

SPIEGEL: You seem to be in an awful position.

Ivanov: This is why we must structure our security concept in a completely different way than Germany does. As far as our weapons shipments to Iran are concerned, any country is permitted to sell weapons to another country, as long as it does not undermine sanctions in doing so. We sell only a limited assortment of defensive weapons. The Tor M1 air defense system, for example, has no impact on the balance of power in the region, because it has a maximum range of only 40 kilometers (25 miles).

SPIEGEL: But Germans are horrified to hear Iranian President (Mahmoud) Ahmadinejad denying the Holocaust and declaring the state of Israel to be superfluous. Such a country should not be permitted to gain control over a single nuclear missile.

Ivanov: We have condemned these statements. But the core of the problem is Iran's nuclear program. The Bushehr nuclear reactor, which we are building, has nothing to do with this. It is being fully monitored by the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency).

SPIEGEL: Iran will not be able to build a bomb with the help of your technology?

Ivanov: I am completely convinced of that. There is no enrichment happening in Bushehr. We do not supply weapons-grade uranium, and the spent fuel rods are returned to Russia. Natanz and Arak -- facilities that are subject to IAEA monitoring -- are the real problems. No one in the world knows whether Iran has provided access to all of its facilities.

SPIEGEL: That is precisely what is so disconcerting.

Ivanov: We are more concerned about it than Western Europeans. Everyone is talking about these supposed nuclear bombs being developed in the distant future. But Iran already has mid-range missiles today that can reach Russia -- not Germany.

SPIEGEL: That's true, and they can also reach Israel.

Ivanov: Tehran's refusal to recognize Israel is the wrong policy. We say this to the Iranians quite openly. But no one should overestimate Russia's ability to exert influence when it comes to the Iran crisis. And as far as possible sanctions go, they certainly cannot be comprehensive. Otherwise Iran could follow in North Korea's footsteps and expel the IAEA inspectors -- and, heaven forbid, withdraw from the non-proliferation treaty. If that happens, no one will know what's going on in Iran. In any event, Iran must provide answers to everything -- including the question of how the gas centrifuge technology developed by the European Urenco Group, in which the Germans, the Dutch and the British are involved, found its way to Pakistan and later to Iran. What a global outrage it would have triggered if Russia had delivered these centrifuges!

SPIEGEL: You have also referred to Chechnya as a hotbed of terrorism, but the West has a more differentiated view of the issue. Is the war in Chechnya truly over?

Ivanov: From my perspective as defense minister, that is clearly the case. We still have a division stationed there, as well as smaller special units. Aside from that, the Interior Ministry has been in charge there for the past three years. I am familiar with the clichés in the West, but political normalization is making headway in Chechnya. The worst of the crisis is behind us.

SPIEGEL: And yet the situation in the neighboring republics is more troubled than ever …

Ivanov: There are two reasons for the tensions. The social situation is difficult, and religious extremism is spreading among the Islamic faithful. This is a consequence of the collapse of the Soviet Union. After 1991, many Muslims went to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan for their education. We are now dealing with the consequences.

SPIEGEL: A true warlike hysteria has also developed between Russian and Georgia of late. Why does a major power like Russia react so intensely when it feels provoked by a small neighbor?

Ivanov: The Soviet Union is dead. Why should Russia continue to support the new independent states? In the case of Ukraine, we did this to the tune of $6 to $7 billion a year.

SPIEGEL: You have cancelled all air traffic to (the Georgian capital) Tiflis.

Ivanov: These are not sanctions. We no longer operate direct flights to Tiflis because Georgian airlines owe us money. You were the ones who introduced us to the market economy in the 1990s. Now we are sticking to it and you come to us with accusations. We cannot accept the fact that Georgia continues to insult us. It is clear to us that the Georgian leadership is dragging NATO and the EU into its efforts to solve its internal problems.

SPIEGEL: Last week was not a good week for Russia's image abroad. Former FSB (Russian Federal Security Service) agent Alexander Litvinenko died in London after being poisoned. You yourself worked for two decades in the intelligence service. Can you rule out the possibility that the FSB was behind the attack?

Ivanov: Yes, I can rule it out. It wouldn't make any sense. I don't known Litvinenko. All I know is that he was in charge of a department at the FSB that dealt with organized crime. Before joining the FSB, Litvinenko was part of a guard unit at a prison camp. He was apparently of no interest to anyone as a source of information.

SPIEGEL: The image of the Russian armed forces isn't exactly glowing at the moment. In an article in Red Star, your chief of staff complains that Russian society "perceives the armed forces as a collection of drunkards and corrupt officers." What are you doing to change this reputation?

Ivanov: Opinion polls show that the military now ranks third behind the presidency and the church among Russia's most trustworthy institutions. Our society is familiar with the old saying: If you do not feed your own army, you will end up feeding a foreign army. We have introduced extensive changes. We had 3.5 million soldiers in 1994. Today we have 1.1 million. What other major country has reduced the number of its troops so radically in such a short time? But the most important thing is that our generals' way of thinking has changed. We have put the Cold War behind us. We no longer count our divisions and our warheads. And I am Russia's first civilian defense minister in many centuries. We have become more pragmatic.

SPIEGEL: You are widely viewed as President Putin's crown prince, but you routinely deny any aspirations to succeed him. But isn't there a saying in the army that goes: He who does not aspire to be a general is a poor soldier?

Ivanov: I am already a general. But in all seriousness: We must first focus on the parliamentary elections, and their significance should not be underestimated. I am not considering running for president at this time. That election campaign is still half a year away.

SPIEGEL: Mr. Minister, we thank you for this interview.

Interview was conducted by Editors Christian Neef, Joachim Preuss and Matthias Schepp.