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SPIEGEL ONLINE Interview with Archbishop Werner Thissen

'Industrialized Countries Need to Fulfill Their Promises'

Hamburg Archbishop Werner Thissen, the delegate of Christian charity Misereor at the German Conference of Catholic Bishops, spoke to SPIEGEL ONLINE about the gross flaws in Western foreign aid to developing countries.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Archbishop Thissen, along with a delegation of Catholic bishops from Africa, Asia, Latin America and Europe, you have appealed to the governments of the leading industrialized nations to put global economic growth in the service of the struggle against poverty. What exactly do the governments need to do?

Thissen: We have to support the process of democratization in the countries of the South. Secondly, we have to do our part to help make open trade relations possible. We still close ourselves off, in our own interests, far too much -- which places a much too heavy burden on southern countries. Thirdly, we have to help the countries in the South fight corruption. In that area, it's not helpful to demand greater transparency in those countries while we are creating our own tax havens. We in Germany have not even managed to sign the United Nations Convention against Corruption. That is shameful.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Is it not justified to demand so-called "good governance" from developing countries?

Thissen: Certainly. But we must not lose our credibility. We demand good governance, yet we aren't able to convert our promises into schedules for action and laws.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What do you think of direct payments to developing countries?

Thissen: An important point. The industrialized countries have to fulfill their promises and donate 0.7 percent of their gross national product by 2015. This goal should be reached by annual increases; it should be written into state budgets and it should not be postponed until the end.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What is the reason for the lack of enthusiasm about paying out the money?

Thissen: The wealthy countries have their own problems, and those take center stage. But we should change our way of thinking: We have to understand that we will not develop in a future-oriented way in Germany if there isn't also an improvement in the situation of the countries of the South. So the commitment to Africa is by no means purely selfless, since we too stand to profit from it. We'll only hurt ourselves if we don't abandon our colonial viewpoint and finally wake up.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: To what extent do we profit from support to Africa?

Thissen: The more the developing countries prosper, the more people there can lead a life worth living. That opens up new business opportunities for us too, and it reduces the flow of refugees to the wealthy countries.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Then why are the industrialized nations not doing more?

Thissen: The immediate interests of the financial ministers in the governments of the industrialized countries are too strong. There is, for example, the detrimental tendency to count debt cancellation as part of foreign aid. That's not fair.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Are you unhappy about German foreign aid too?

Thissen: I have the impression that Chancellor Merkel and Development Minister Heidemarie Wieczorek-Zeul are willing to fulfil the promises made at the Millennium Summit. In the year 2000, the heads of state and government leaders of 189 countries committed themselves to reducing poverty in the world by half by 2015. Speaking to me, both Merkel and Wieczorek-Zeul have vehemently stressed their desire to continue the struggle against corruption and for more democracy.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Does that require new approaches? What concrete results are you demanding from the G-8 summit in Heiligendamm?

Thissen: We don't need new resolutions, but we should implement what has already been realized and decided. Billions have already flowed to developing countries, after all. I could cry when my fellow bishops in Africa tell me: "You sent the money, but it hasn't arrived, because it never got past our corrupt ruling class. From there it travels to Swiss bank accounts, and when we ask questions, they show us the red card and say: bank secrecy." That's grotesque! We need strict and fair guidelines for the granting of loans. Loans must not function as a way to allow creditors to get access natural resources through a roundabout way.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: China is giving African countries loans at lower rates of interest than the West. Shouldn't the West follow this example?

Thissen: The fact that China is issuing loans should act as a wake-up call for us. Now everybody has to recognize that Africa is a continent with development potential -- otherwise China would not invest. Unfortunately, these loans are not issued on the basis of development aid policy criteria. I'm concerned that the high number of Chinese loans to Africa will lead to us later having to organize another debt relief campaign.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Do you believe the G-8 summit in Heiligendamm will live up to its claim to global leadership?

Thissen: "Global leadership" -- I don't like hearing that expression. The G-8 are not a world government. They have no mandate for being one. "Global leadership" should be interpreted in terms of Catholic social doctrine: Property entails social duties, which means that wealthy countries have the duty to also provide for poor countries.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Are you satisfied with the world's leading economic power in this respect? It's led by a born-again Christian.

Thissen: Certainly not. The modus operandi "We are the world's number one, and we dictate what happens" doesn't work. The United States have a great responsibility. They don't live up to it to the extent that they should, neither with regard to peace aspects nor economic aspects.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What is your stance on the protests at Heiligendamm?

Thissen: I believe peaceful protests are completely justified, because one can rightly accuse the summit participants of not keeping their previous promises, namely reducing poverty by half. The funds available for foreign aid have even been reduced by 5 percent within the G-8 countries.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Heiner Geissler -- who is a former Jesuit scholar as well as former general secretary of Germany's Christian Democrat Union (CDU) and a practising Catholic -- has joined the anti-globalization NGO Attac. Is the Catholic Church closer to the goals of the opponents of globalization than to those of the government leaders?

Thissen: I had discussions with Attac delegates at the Ecumenical Church Congress in Berlin. When they accuse the G-8 governments of doing too little, I fully agree with them. However I don't like their way of doing things and I disagree with many of their statements.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why doesn't the Catholic Church take a stronger critical stance on the destructive effects of Western agricultural trade, which destroys local markets in the Third World?

Thissen: We're constantly criticizing that -- but nobody pays much attention to us. It's a scandal what wealthy countries are developing in terms of trade barriers, out of sheer self-interest. Access to the world market for the people in the South is one of the most important driving forces against poverty. Just to give one example: We place such high customs duties on ground coffee that we degrade coffee farmers to the status of pure harvest workers. We won't allow them to also earn money from the processing of coffee.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Western companies want to earn money themselves. Capitalism aims at maximizing profits ...

Thissen: ... but one part of doing good business is a good business climate. In the long run, we're ruining the global business climate. We'll feel the backlash at some point.

Interview conducted by Alexander Schwabe