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  SPIEGEL Interview with the Dalai Lama: 'I Pray for China's Leadership'

SPIEGEL Interview with the Dalai Lama 'I Pray for China's Leadership'

Part 2: 'I Welcomed the Awarding of the Games to Beijing from the Start.'

SPIEGEL: What do you see as potential solutions? And in what direction do think Beijing will go?

Dalai Lama: Our policy of extensive autonomy for Tibet offers the best prospects. The Tibetans must have the power to decide on all issues relating to culture, religion and the environment. This is something completely different from being an independent state. Under international law, this new Tibet would also be part of the People's Republic of China, which would remain responsible for foreign and security policy. If Beijing would agree to such a model, I can guarantee you that we would no longer have such unrest and such a crisis as we have now. This is the one variant, the positive one.

SPIEGEL: Is there a negative variant?

Dalai Lama: There is a risk that the Chinese leadership believes that it no longer stands a chance of pacifying Tibet, and that it has lost the loyalty of the Tibetans forever. At the same time, the Chinese want to completely control a country with such rich natural resources. In that case, they will oppress our people even more brutally, eventually turning them into an insignificant minority in their own homeland. Variant number two is a Tibet for Han Chinese. It would be the end of all dialogue with us, and the end of all measures to build trust.

SPIEGEL: Which road is Beijing likely to choose? Will there already be a sense of it on June 20 in Lhasa, when the controversial Olympic torch is carried through the Tibetan capital and more demonstrations are a possibility?

Dalai Lama: I have advised my countrymen in Lhasa and elsewhere, including San Francisco, not to stage demonstrations against the Olympic torch. I don't know what the point would be. Perhaps I will make another appeal. The Chinese are constantly accusing me of sabotaging the Olympic Games and the torch relay. In truth, I welcomed the awarding of the games to Beijing from the start.

SPIEGEL: Many Tibetans see the torch relay from Mount Everest, which is sacred to the Tibetans, along with the Lhasa route, which passes your former seat of government, the Potala Palace, as a provocation. Don't you?

Dalai Lama: If times were calm, I wouldn't get upset about it. But now I do understand the protests, without supporting them, of course. I also counseled the organizers of the so-called peace march, from here in Dharamsala to the border of the People's Republic, to cancel the plan, because it could lead to clashes with the armed border guards. But all I can do is dispense advice, not suppress other opinions. I hope that the Chinese will not use all of this as an excuse to commit another bloodbath.

SPIEGEL: Your nonviolent path is losing support among your countrymen in exile, even though you continue to be revered as a symbol of Tibet. The militants in the Tibetan Youth Congress, who insist on fighting for independence, are gaining influence. The Chinese leadership recently dubbed the TYC a "terrorist organization."

Dalai Lama: Of course I understand the impatience of the young. But they have no concept, just emotions. I have been familiar with such dreams for many years, and I had hoped that they had subsided long ago. Aside from the moral question, what would this mean? That the Tibetans should take up arms to achieve their independence? Which arms, and where would they come from? From the mujahedeen in Pakistan, perhaps? And if we get the weapons, how do we get them to Tibet? And once that armed war of independence has begun, will the Americans come to our aid? Or the Germans?

SPIEGEL: Of course not. Nevertheless, some Tibetans believe that you are too willing to compromise. Your role model, Mahatma Gandhi, preached both nonviolent resistance and civil disobedience. Non-cooperation with the occupiers and provocative marches through the country seemed like a good idea to him.

Dalai Lama: You're right. And yet there is one big difference: Gandhi was free to argue his case in a court of law. Try doing that in Lhasa. The British imperialists were bad enough, but no comparison with the Chinese of today -- they are far worse. And, besides, I believe that a hunger strike to the death would be an inadmissible act of violence. One doesn't stand a chance against the Chinese with that sort of thing.

SPIEGEL: Now you are condemning the People's Republic rather broadly. China is certainly no constitutional state. But there are unmistakable signs of a slowly growing civil society: courageous journalists, lawyers and environmentalists. And China's economic progress is phenomenal.

Dalai Lama: That's true. You should know that I am a great fan of the "harmonious society" that the party leadership is currently promoting. But words must also be followed by actions. I am certainly optimistic about China in the long term. It is difficult to violently suppress people in the long run, as the example of the Soviet Union and the Eastern European countries has shown. China's society is already in flux today, and this has led to many positive changes. The Chinese are rediscovering religion. Former party leader Jiang Zemin is a Buddhist, and so is former Prime Minister Zhu Rongji. Many businesspeople and artists have also begun showing an interest in Buddhism. Exciting and certainly nonconformist essays critical of the regime are appearing on the Internet. This could lead to growing sympathy and solidarity with the Tibetan cause.

SPIEGEL: Are you homesick for Tibet?

Dalai Lama: Homesick? No. Home is where you feel at home and are treated well. This is, of course, the case in India, but also in Switzerland, in the United States -- and in Germany, which I like very much.

SPIEGEL: Have you given up hope of seeing Lhasa again, and the Potala Palace, where you grew up and ruled the country?

Dalai Lama: Oh no, not at all. I am optimistic that I will be able to return one day.

SPIEGEL: When and under what conditions?

Dalai Lama: I already consider myself semi-retired today. The day-to-day business of government is already handled by the cabinet led by Prime Minister Rinpoche, which was democratically elected here in exile. I would like to retire completely in a few years.

SPIEGEL: You recently said, during the days of the worst violence in Lhasa and the militant protests here in Dharamsala: "If things go out of control then my only option is to completely resign." Some interpreted your remarks as an open threat to the radicals from the Youth Congress, that they could no longer count on your support. Others saw them as a hidden threat to China's leadership, as the last, best chance to seek a compromise.

Dalai Lama: It was meant the way I said it. I look forward to a life as a simple monk. Well okay, perhaps there was a bit of a warning to it, in the sense you mentioned.

SPIEGEL: The Chinese will demand other concessions from you before they will even consider allowing you to return to Lhasa. After all, you claim to speak for all Tibetans, and you have called for extensive autonomy for a Greater Tibet, which includes both the current Autonomous Region and parts of the provinces of Qinghai…

Dalai Lama: ... where I was born…

SPIEGEL: ... Sichuan, Gansu and Yunnan, or close to a quarter of the landmass of the People's Republic.

Dalai Lama: It is my moral obligation to speak for 6 million Tibetans, and the cultural rights and freedoms must apply to all Tibetans -- as it is stated in the Constitution.

SPIEGEL: Can you even resign as the Dalai Lama, essentially handing in a religious and political title and its obligations?

Dalai Lama: I will no longer play a political role or a pronounced spiritual role. When the day of my return comes, when a certain measure of pluralism, freedom of opinion and rule of law has returned to Tibet, I will relinquish all of my historic authority to the local government.

Dalai Lama: Will you be the last Dalai Lama? To what extent do you intend to be involved in the process of choosing your successor?

Dalai Lama: We discussed this issue within a high-ranking group here in Dharamsala just the other day. There are various models, but the key factor should be the will of the Tibetan people. I have already considered a referendum on this question. Everything is possible: a conclave, like in the Catholic Church, a woman as my successor, no Dalai Lama anymore, or perhaps even two, since the Communist Party has, astonishingly enough, given itself the right to be responsible for reincarnations.

SPIEGEL: And what is the most likely scenario?

Dalai Lama: I was unanimously asked to take part in choosing my successor and to keep the institution alive. But I hope that there is still plenty of time, and that I will have another 10 or even 20 years to think about things. Of course, if we are still in exile then, my successor will presumably have to be found somewhere in India, certainly outside Tibet.

SPIEGEL: You travel around the world a lot ...

Dalai Lama: ... and that's the way it will remain for a long time. Even if I am to return to Lhasa, I would like to continue traveling. I consider myself a citizen of the world and am very interested in the relationships between science and Buddhism. My main goals are to promote fundamental human values and exchange among the religions. Then comes Tibet.

SPIEGEL: You will be coming to Germany for a few days again next week -- a country you visit often.

Dalai Lama: Yes, I like being in your country very much. I will give talks and probably meet with a few politicians.

SPIEGEL: The chancellor will traveling in Latin America at that time, but Norbert Lammert, the president of the German parliament, and Jürgen Rüttgers, the governor of the state of North Rhine Westphalia, apparently want to meet with you.

Dalai Lama: Well, let's hope that the Chinese can contain their protests this time.

SPIEGEL: You know that you are especially popular in Germany, and that more Germans name you as a role model than the pope, who is German?

Dalai Lama: I cannot account for that. It puts me to shame.

SPIEGEL: Your Holiness, we thank you for this interview.

Interview conducted by Erich Follath and Padma Rao at the exile headquarters of the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala, India.