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The Path to Extremism

The Islamist Mindset 'Is Very Comfortable'

Ghaffar Hussain was once a radical Islamist with the group Hizb ut-Tahrir. Now he is part of the Quilliam Foundation, a British think tank seeking to combat extremism. He spoke with SPIEGEL ONLINE about the Islamist world view and the pleasant feeling of omniscience.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: As we speak, around three dozen German Islamists are supposedly living in terrorist training camps in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Some of them have radicalized very quickly, within months. You yourself were a radical Islamist at one time and are now an expert in the field. What is it that makes some young Muslims tick?

Hussain: Primarily they buy into a certain narrative, and a specific world view, which seems to be particularly appealing for young Muslims in Europe. Quite a few of them feel marginalized, they don't feel they fit into society and they can't connect with their parents' generation. So they look for something they can belong to and some of them feel very attracted by the Umma concept, the idea that all Muslims form a unity. This is then where your allegiance lies and nothing else matters. From there, they develop an urge to do something good, and then they are sometimes confronted with what I call shock tactics: graphic images of Muslim victims, for example. They reach the conclusion that they have to do something about it. Plus there is the scriptural side: They are being told that they have to fight, that fighting is a duty.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Some of those who have become radicalized have not been very succesful in their former lives. It's like they are losers who seek to transform themselves into winners...

Hussain: Yes, and the elite factor definitly plays a role as well. I have met many radical people who wouldn't want to discuss their ideas with someone knowledgable, because they knew they would not win that debate. But for them their mindset is very comfortable. They are the vanguard, everything makes sense for them. They have a network, a group of friends. It can be very attractive to suddenly be convinced that you alone now know what's really going on. You are a real Muslim, the others have been infiltrated by the West and are corrupted. Certainly you are better than your parents so you don't have to listen to them anymore.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: But to leave your country, join a terrorist organization and live in Waziristan with no prospect of ever returning to a normal life in the West is also a risk?

Hussain: Those types of people think that there is nothing worthwhile left for them to come back to. There are others of course who have families and prefer to live in the West and be armchair radicals...

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Like you, when you were a member of the Islamist organization Hizb ut-Tahrir?

Hussain: In a way, yes. I was a political activist, and Hizb ut-Tahrir didn't advocate that we join the battlefield.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: From your experience, once you really enter that Islamist ideology, how does it change you?

Hussain: It gives you moral and political certainty. Understanding geopolitics for a 15-year-old is very difficult -- but all of a sudden everything is very easy: Ah, this is why they are all fighting against us!

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Radicalization is a process. It's not like you are a moderate on Monday, but wake up on Tuesday as a would-be-terrorist. Can this process be stopped once it has started?

Hussain: Yes, the process can be stopped, if these people are exposed to alternative points of view before it's too late. Before they will only socialize with people who supply them with radical answers to the questions that drive them. Basically these people are looking for answers and they often find radical answers most convincing because they seem to explain everything. This is the point where they need to be confronted with information that contradicts the Islamist narrative. There's also a scriptural aspect to this: You have to show to them that Islam as such does not support many of the Islamists' arguments.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Generally, what role does religious knowledge play in the process of radicalization? A lot of jihadist leaders for example talk a lot about faith without having much in the way of a theological education. Even Osama Bin Laden and Aiman al-Zawahiri fall into that category.

Hussain: Religion is not what motivates people. They don't pick up the Koran and say: Ah, this is what I've got to do! They are motivated by politics. But when Islamists show their world view they always provide some scriptural justification. As a rule, 90 percent of their speeches are political, but they will also say: And the Koran supports this, and the Prophet supports this, so as to make the argument look Islamic.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What were the main factors that made you turn away from radical Islamism?

Hussain: I managed to keep an open mind even when I was an activist for Hizb ut-Tahrir. That allowed me to analyze different perspectives. I also read a lot about history independently, I analysed politics independently and I kept speaking to Muslims who followed different ideas. So I had access to quite a wide variety of information which eventually made me realize that I was following a very narrow interpretation at best. But a lot of people won't expose themselves to all that, they feel too comfortable with their new truths and new friends.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Was this narrowness of interpretation decisive for you? Or was it also a matter of truth and historical accuracy?

Hussain: Some of what I used to believe was definitely false. Islamism is a modern idea, and it was influenced by European movements like Marxism and Socialism. Islamists reinterpret Muslim history according to their ideology. And that leads to a complete misreading of, for example, the Ottoman Empire's history.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: At the Quilliam Foundation you are looking at ways to counter radicalization. You also make use of religious authorities. How does that work?

Hussain: We will take up a specific issue and then we'll try to get respected scholars to take of a clear position in opposition. We have done this, for example, with suicide bombings or the concept that all Muslims must be united under one leadership. We want to show that what radicals believe is in fact a very narrow politically motivated religious standpoint that needs to be exposed for what it is. We don't want to unite everyone under one alternative idea, though.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: When the Quilliam Foundation was set up, as a think tank staffed with former radical Islamists, did you find it difficult to enter the public debate? Or was yours a voice that all sides were eager to listen to?

Hussain: It was actually quite easy to enter the public debate. People were definitely looking for new and original voices on this topic.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Since you started the project, have you actually managed to convince radical Islamists to break away from their groups and their ideology?

Hussain: Yes. We have individually spoken to people we knew and managed to take away between 30 and 40 from these organizations, some even from senior positions. We have also tried numerous times to engage these organizations in public debates with us, but they haven't accepted the offer. But I think we are on the right track. They are definitely not as confident anymore as they used to be.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: The Quilliam Foundtaion is unique in the sense that there are no comparable institutions outside the UK. Do you have plans to expand?

Hussain: On the long term, yes. First we want a solid base in Britain that will be a working model that we can then export to Europe and the US.

Interview conducted by Yassin Musharbash