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Interview with Russian Foreign Minister

Moscow Optimistic about America's New Beginning

In a SPIEGEL interview, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, 58, discusses positive diplomatic signals from the Obama administration, the possibility of nuclear disarmament and opportunities for cooperating in the conflict with Iran.

SPIEGEL: Mr. Minister, it looks as if after a phase of tense relations the United States and Russia want to reach out to each other again. Could 2009 be "a year of new beginnings," as your German counterpart Frank-Walter Steinmeier says?

Lavrov: The global financial crisis is forcing all countries to focus on the real problems. It's actually a simple task.

SPIEGEL: Really?

Lavrov: We can no longer afford the luxury of little geopolitical games, because we all face challenges that directly affect our citizens. So we should no longer ideologize problems, we should instead honestly express our own national interests, understand the legitimate interests of our partners, and have no more hidden agendas, where one thing is said while something else is done behind someone's back. The signals that we are receiving indicate that our Western partners are aiming for the same objectives.

SPIEGEL: This also entails, however, that Russia stops its anti-Western rhetoric. Recently the West has been blamed for just about everything that has been happening in the world.

Lavrov: We are accused of this time and again: anti-Western rhetoric. For example, when we object to a new wave of NATO eastward expansion …

SPIEGEL: ... you're referring to Ukraine and Georgia's bids to become members of the Alliance.

Lavrov: ... or to NATO military bases on the Black Sea or to the American missile defense system in Poland and the Czech Republic, which would pose a threat to us all because it upsets the strategic balance. We are only reacting here to real steps -- steps that violate commitments that the West has made over the past 20 years. It is odd that the West is allowed to act in the spirit of the Cold War while we are accused of anti-Western rhetoric just as soon as we voice our opinions. I think this is -- to put it mildly -- unfair.

SPIEGEL: How might this rapprochement look -- America abandons its missile defense shield in exchange for help in Afghanistan or Iran?

Lavrov: There have already been trade-offs in past eras -- when the Soviet Union collapsed, when our troops left Eastern Europe and during German reunification, for example. But our Western partners have unfortunately not kept their part of the bargain. That's why in Europe today we still live in the shadow of the Cold War.

SPIEGEL: What about, for example, making a new attempt with Iran, which is suspected of building nuclear weapons?

Lavrov: This is not just about the West working together with us. There is also the six-state group, which includes Great Britain, France, Germany, the US, Russia and China. It was agreed that we would all support the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), and sanctions were approved that concerned organizations and persons who take part in the Iranian nuclear program. We are sticking to this agreement.

SPIEGEL: At the same time, though, Russia is blocking stricter sanctions ...

Lavrov: ... because their aim is an economic blockade and they do not bring negotiations forward. We strictly reject this -- this is not what we signed. We are pleased, however, that Barack Obama and his team speak of the necessity of taking a fresh look at the situation. They say that America will explore possibilities of speaking directly with Iran. This is what Russia has been calling for over the past four years.

SPIEGEL: Obama is apparently also considering a new beginning on the issue of disarmament, on reducing the number of nuclear weapons -- perhaps to 1,000 warheads on each side.

Lavrov: I still haven't seen any proposals where 80 percent of the warheads would be eliminated or their overall number would be reduced to 1,000. I am only familiar with media reports on this, but nothing has been presented to us -- neither officially nor behind the scenes.

SPIEGEL: Something needs to happen: The Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty (START I) will expire at the end of this year.

Lavrov: Over the past three years, we have repeatedly urged the Bush administration to engage in serious talks. We wanted a new agreement to replace the old one. At the time, America was not yet ready for negotiations.

SPIEGEL: What is Russia's position on the issue?

Lavrov: We favor disarmament, placing ceilings on the number of warheads and missiles, but also maintaining existing control mechanisms. The balance in strategic offensive weapons has been decisive for stability in the world over the past few decades. US Vice President Joseph Biden stressed at the Munich Security Conference that the US would very soon be prepared for talks with us. This shows that the Obama administration understands better than the Bush administration the importance of disarmament and arms control.

SPIEGEL: Is it also conceivable that the US and Russia would work together on a missile defense shield?

Lavrov: We made an offer like this a year and a half ago for a three-way Russia-Europe-US project. With the radar stations on Russian territory and in Azerbaijan, it would be possible to form a radar chain which we could use to monitor every missile threat from the south. This is the alternative to a unilaterally developed plan by the US. It is still not too late. We could sit at the negotiating table and begin with an assessment of the situation.

SPIEGEL: For a long time Russia has been fixated on America -- and this has often been a source of irritation for Europeans. Now Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has proposed a new European security system. But it's not clear to the West exactly which objectives Russia is concretely pursuing here. Why don't both sides fall back on the Organization for Security and Co-Operation in Europe (OSCE) as a European security structure and modernize it?

Lavrov: Because there are far more important players in the European sphere than the member states of the OSCE: NATO, the European Union and the Organization for Collective Security ...

SPIEGEL: ... an alliance of Russia and six other former Soviet republics ...

Lavrov: The OSCE was totally powerless when the Georgian aggression against South Ossetia began, as was NATO. We have urged the UN Security Council to confirm the Sarkozy-Medvedev plan for a cease-fire, but it has refused. Even the OSCE Council only managed to come up with a halfhearted solution. We are talking about a key principle that has not yet been achieved: Nobody should be able to extend their own security at someone else's expense. We absolutely need a new agreement on European security which guarantees this and contains the mechanisms for weapons and arms control.

SPIEGEL: You like to speak of principles. One of the principles of the OSCE is that: There can be no use of force to change national borders. This principle was very much endorsed by Russia in the case of Kosovo, which broke away from Serbia. In the case of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which broke away from Georgia, Russia is applying other principles. It wants to annex these areas. There are more troops stationed there than agreed and there are even plans to build Russian military bases.

Lavrov: We fully embrace the principle of territorial integrity. But there is worldwide disagreement over how compatible this is with peoples' rights to self-determination. Up until now, there has only been one document that addresses the conflict of objectives -- the UN passed it in 1970. This affirms that every state should respect the territorial integrity of every other state, as long as no acts of violence are being carried out against national minorities in this region.