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Interview with Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin

'The Pope Did Not Show any Emotion'

The speaker of Israel's Knesset, Reuven Rivlin, talks to SPIEGEL ONLINE about why he boycotted the recent welcoming ceremony for Benedict XVI in Tel Aviv and his impression of the pope's visit to Yad Vashem.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why did you boycott the welcoming ceremony for Pope Benedict XVI at Tel Aviv airport?

Reuven Rivlin: I am part of the government, but I am also an Israeli and a Jew. As part of the government, I do see it fitting that the Knesset received him formally, so I sent one of my deputies. But any politician needs to act according to his conscience and I thought that, without a strong message, my mission would not be achieved -- the mission of remembering the Holocaust and not allowing others to forget.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: The pope said in his speech at the airport that during his stay in Israel he would "have the opportunity to honor the memory of the 6 million Jewish victims of the Shoah, and to pray that humanity will never again witness a crime of such magnitude." So what is your problem?

Rivlin: There are many problems. In his formal announcement, he stated he is coming to the Holy Land as a pilgrim. And I wanted to emphasize that the Holy Land today is the state of Israel and its capital is Jerusalem. He also denied the mayor of Jerusalem the ability to speak at the reception in his honor upon coming to Jerusalem, since it could be understood as recognition of the sovereignty of the state of Israel over the city of Jerusalem.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: This is nothing exceptional. There are also countries with which you have very warm relations that do not accept Israel's sovereignty over East Jerusalem.

Rivlin: If that were all, I would have concluded that these are simply the Vatican's constraints. But one cannot ignore certain facts in the life of the pope. First of all, as an ideologist -- as a 14-year-old boy, he joined the Hitler Youth ...

SPIEGEL ONLINE: ... something that Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi denies...

Rivlin: ... later, he also joined the German army. This too is something which we came to terms with, regarding all Germans. So we could have said that we do not forget, but we forgive -- because he admits his past. But in addition, as pope, he permitted the rehabilitation of a person who denied the Shoah…

SPIEGEL ONLINE: … Bishop Richard Williamson. But the pope later revised his decision and condemned every kind of Holocaust denial.

Rivlin: He did a U-turn, but I am not sure if he did this from the bottom of his heart or not. And then he gave his blessing to the United Nations' Durban II conference, where Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was given a platform for his anti-Israeli tirades.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: The pope called the conference against racism "important," not the Iranian president's speech.

Rivlin: Let us say that all this could be resolved, but there is another thing. In order to do away with Holocaust denial, not only for the sake of the Jewish people but for the sake of the world, we are asking the Pope to show us the Vatican's archive which proves that the Shoah happened and that to our dismay the Holy See under Pope Pius XII stood in silence -- not only sweeping the facts underneath the carpet, but also to a great extent, through his silence, giving legitimacy to the Shoah.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: The Holocaust memorialYad Vashem and the office of Israeli President Shimon Peres agreed that the Pope did not have to visit the museum at Yad Vashem and thereby could avoid passing by a panel criticizing Pius XII.

Rivlin: We must not send out the message that the Jews are willing to forget what happened. This is something which occurs often to people who are in governmental positions. In the world it is more popular to talk about the future than remind the world of the past.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: President Peres says that what is written in the newspapers is one thing, but the final judgment of the visit will be in the history books and that is what counts.

Rivlin: I explicitly say that while our president looks to the future, and only at the future, I really think that we cannot allow a message implying that the Jews are willing to forget. There is one thing which Jews cannot compromise over: the memory of the Shoah.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: If you want the world to remember that the Holocaust was a single historic event not comparable in its magnitude, you should condemn Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and other Israeli politicians who repeatedly compare Ahmadinejad to Hitler.

Rivlin: But it is Ahmadinejad himself who misuses the Holocaust! He denies Israel's right to exist by saying that the Shoah did not happen. He is using the Shoah to justify the destruction of the Jewish state. The Shoah denial is aimed at preparing for "another round."

SPIEGEL ONLINE: In the end you did receive the pope, at the memorial ceremony in Yad Vashem.

Rivlin: When I accompanied him into the Hall of Remembrance, I drew his attention to the names of the death camps in the floor: Buchenwald, Auschwitz, Dachau ... But I saw he did not want me to talk about it. When he sat near Rabbi Israel Meir Lau, the chairman of Yad Vashem, and me, I said to him: "The Holocaust is not just a metaphor. Rabbi Lau is himself a survivor of the Shoah. He was four when he went to Buchenwald and eight when he got out. Here you can touch the Shoah." But the Pope did not show any emotion. When I left Yad Vashem, I knew why I hadn't come to the reception at the airport.

Interview conducted by Christoph Schult.