Harvard Professor Joseph Nye on Hard and Soft Power: 'It Is Pointless to Talk to Al-Qaida'

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SPIEGEL: Does Osama bin Laden not have an attractive message for many people in that region of the world?

Nye: Sure, he has a lot of soft power. He proved this when he brought down the Twin Towers. Bin Laden did not hold a gun to the heads of the people who flew the planes. He did not pay them either. They did it because they were attracted by his convictions.

SPIEGEL: Has bin Laden's soft power increased or decreased since?

Nye: I think that his soft power was greater in 2001 than it is today. His excessive use of terror, including numerous attacks that indiscriminately killed many women and children, and of course many Muslims, has hurt the attractiveness of his message.

SPIEGEL: President Obama has not been able to celebrate any major foreign policy breakthroughs so far -- which of course is not all that easy. How, for example, should the United States deal with North Korea? By relying more heavily on hard power?

Nye: Yes. But when it comes to North Korea, Chinese hard power is needed. Beijing provides the majority of food and fuel for North Korea. It would be important to persuade the Chinese to actually do more with their hard power. To achieve that, America will have to employ subtle diplomacy. We need to quietly assure the Chinese that we won't be sending US troops to North Korea. That will alleviate some of the Chinese fears about the consequences of a North Korean collapse.

SPIEGEL: What strategy would you recommend to Obama for dealing with Iran?

Nye: The question with Iran is whether it will be possible to persuade them that they would be better off following the example of Japan. The Japanese have the technology to build a nuclear weapon. But they decided it is too costly to be a nuclear power and not very useful for enhancing prosperity.

SPIEGEL: And you truly believe that the mullahs will forgo their nuclear ambitions for economic considerations?

Nye: We won't know until we have negotiations. Obama wants to explore the diplomatic options to determine what is possible and what is not. I think he is right about that.

SPIEGEL: How can a politician learn soft power?

Nye: Every politician just has to remember how he got his position in the first place. A young candidate running for Congress or any outsider interested in public office could only achieve his goals by relying on soft power. They could not force anyone to vote for them. They needed to convince their potential voters, they needed to do fundraising, they needed to be attractive candidates. Democracy is the best school to learn soft power.

SPIEGEL: Is Obama too soft?

Nye: If you have grown up in Chicago politics, you understand hard power versus soft power. Obama can be hard and soft.

SPIEGEL: Henry Kissinger, the doyen of American global policy, would object that foreign policy is not about hard or soft power, but about interests. Isn't your soft-power concept a contradiction of his realpolitik?

Nye: Kissinger was my professor when I was a graduate student at Harvard. There are differences to a degree, but we are not far apart. The key question is how you define the national interest. Was it in America's interest to go into Iraq? I think not. Was it in America's interest to go into Afghanistan? I think yes. I partly agree with Henry: It is about interests. It's the definition of America's national interest we sometimes disagree on.

SPIEGEL: How would you define the current national interest of the US, the world's only remaining superpower?

Nye: I don't think that the national interest is predetermined by geopolitics or the history of a country. Important political leaders never just followed their interests -- they were concerned about the interests of their people. Take Nelson Mandela: He decided that reconciliation would be more important for South Africa than revenge. Or look at Helmut Kohl: He put the goal of German reunification at the top of his political agenda and was less concerned about the German exchange rate or the effects on the West German economy at that time.

SPIEGEL: What is the priority of US foreign policy right now?

Nye: I think that America should find its interests in ways which are more consistent with the interests of other countries, which are things that are good for us but also good for others. That will make Americans exporters of hope again, not exporters of fear.

SPIEGEL: Hillary Clinton wanted to make you ambassador to Japan. The White House intervened and appointed a major donor to the Obama campaign instead. Are you disappointed?

Nye: Well, the State Department can only recommend a person, but, frankly, the White House has the final say. As you know, there is a long tradition in the United States that about a third of the ambassadors are political appointments.

SPIEGEL: Should that be changed?

Nye: Money and donations are an important part of our political system. They are hard power. I would much rather have Obama spend his political capital on the big issues and not the small issues.

SPIEGEL: Professor Nye, thank you very much for this interview.

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• Part 1: 'It Is Pointless to Talk to Al-Qaida'
• Part 2: 'Osama Bin Laden Has a Lot of Soft Power'