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11/15/2009

SPIEGEL: Do you still consider Hamid Karzai as the right partner in this process?

Clinton : Well, he is the elected president. And I think once he decided to stand for the second round...

SPIEGEL: ...which became necessary after no candidate could reach the necessary 50 percent margin in the first round...

Clinton : ...he legitimized the outcome of the election. Dr. Abdullah decided not to pursue, which has happened in other places. It's happened in my own country when somebody looks at a run-off election and doesn't think he has much of a winning chance. So there is no doubt that he is the duly elected president of Afghanistan. But it should not be that he just holds the title in name only. He has to perform for his people and he has to demonstrate a commitment to the wellbeing of the people in Afghanistan. I'm not underestimating the dangers he faces and the threats, as we saw with the terrible attack on the UN headquarters. But he has to show the leadership that we should expect from him.

SPIEGEL: Instead, in the words of British Prime Minister Brown "sadly, the government of Afghanistan has become a byword for corruption." He added that, if Karzai doesn't improve his administration of office, he will "have forfeited its right to international support." And you are obviously not happy with the way Karzai is fighting corruption either.

Clinton : Well, I think there are several aspects to this. One, we need a formalized mechanism to be investigating corruption inside Afghanistan that is independent of the existing power structure. Two, we also have to be more careful about what the West, NATO, other donors do, because a lot of the corruption is fueled by the amount of money we put in and don't have appropriate measures of accountability ourselves. We have to be tougher. But at the end of the day, what we need to do is measure results on the ground. We need to set standards about where money should be going and what the results should be. And monitor those and hold the people accountable.

SPIEGEL: The situation in Pakistan is at least as dangerous as the situation in Afghanistan. Pakistan owns nuclear weapons...

Clinton : ... the nuclear arsenal that Pakistan has, I believe is secure. I think the government and the military have taken adequate steps to protect that...

SPIEGEL: ... and on top of that Pakistan gives shelter to terrorists, and possibly they are protected by elements within the government in Islamabad. During your recent visit to the country you were quoted as saying: "It is hard to believe that members of the Pakistani government did not know the hiding places of al-Qaida and could not get at them if they really wanted to." What exactly did you mean by that?

Clinton : The safe haven that al-Qaida has found in Pakistan is very troubling. These terrorists are still actively engaged with the elements of the Pakistani Taliban that are threatening the state of Pakistan. And it was only recently that Pakistan, through its civilian leadership and its military leadership, actually made the decision that this was a threat to them. They are committed to going after those who have attacked their army headquarters, administration buildings, universities, mosques -- so many targets that really exemplify the authority of the state and the culture of society. My point really was to say: It is a very high priority for my government to capture or kill the al-Qaida leadership. And we need more help from you in order to be able to achieve that.

SPIEGEL: It is well known that Mullah Omar, the top-terrorist and leader of the Afghan Taliban, has his headquarters near the Pakistani town Quetta close to the border. Do you believe that leading members of the Pakistani secret service are still helping the extremists?

Clinton : Not at the highest levels. I am convinced that at the highest levels, we have a good working relationship. But we have tens of thousands of people in our government in sensitive positions. Every so often, we uncover somebody who is a traitor giving away classified information. So I know that it takes constant vigilance to try to root out those who might not share the values of a society. I would like to see a real effort made on the part of the top leadership to make sure that no one down the ranks is giving any kind of support to the Qaida leadership.

SPIEGEL: In the conflict with Iran there is hardly any progress to be seen. The government in Teheran seems determined not to accept the recent offer of negotiations as based on a proposal of the American president.

Clinton : Well, we don't have a formal response from Iran yet.

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• Part 1: 'Our Goal Is to Defeat Al-Qaida and Its Extremist Allies'
• Part 2: 'Is Hamid Karzai the Right Partner?'
• Part 3: 'We Know There Is a Lot of Turmoil in the Iranian Political System'