Ai Weiwei Interview 'I Want To Put Up a Fight'
Part 2: 'If I was a Western Politician, I Probably Would like Dictators, Too'
SPIEGEL: How does the fact that you can't travel affect your work?
Ai: Of course I feel restricted. Of course I want to see reactions and learn from them. No artist works like a genius creating only from his inner self. You want to try out things, you want to know if something works, you want to correct yourself. I don't have any of this at the moment. On the other hand, I live in a world which is full of other impulses that give structure to my work. Scientists often work in a similar way. They too have to predict the results of their work before they can actually see it.
SPIEGEL: Do you know Venice?
Ai: Yes, I took part in the Biennale of 1999.
SPIEGEL: How did you like it?
Ai: I left the day before the opening. Like many artists I don't particularly like these events -- all the hand-shaking, all the hellos. I am not really made for this.
SPIEGEL: And the city, the place itself?
Ai: I missed energy. Venice is an old beauty, no doubt. A precious old carpet. But where do you hang it? This time I convinced my mother to go there. She has suffered a lot during my detention; she is 80 years old now and has never seen my work abroad. My sister is going to accompany her.
SPIEGEL: In Germany, there are two rather extreme views on China. Some politicians, but mostly leaders from the business world, praise the Chinese model as efficient and forward-looking. Artists and human rights activists, on the other hand, portray China's leaders as criminals who oppress their own people.
Ai: I have never been visited by any of those German industry leaders. I am afraid they would be scared to death if they spent a few days with me. No, actually I do have one friend among them -- Hans-Olaf Henkel (the former president of the German Federation of Industries) who posed with a "Free Ai Weiwei" poster in Berlin and who is also in contact with the political leadership.
SPIEGEL: Next to Mao Zedong, you are probably China's best-known figure.
Ai: Well, Mao used to say: "Love and hate are never without reason." He may have been right there. If I was a Western politician, I probably would like dictators, too. After all, they are able to make decisions very quickly and they will sign any check as long as you have a smile for them. Who cares about the conditions in dictatorships? Everyone has to make ends meet and you can't take care of everything, right? I understand this attitude perfectly.
SPIEGEL: Doesn't it disturb you that both of these extreme views of China are grotesque simplifications?
Ai: Yes, but how did this critical view of China come about in the first place? It is because there is no free flow of information. You can't exchange arguments freely on issues like Tibet or the province of Xinjiang.
SPIEGEL: At the same time, there are also states where you could not speak out at all. Or countries where someone like you would perhaps not even live anymore.
Ai: I have never said that China is the most brutal of all systems. I don't even claim that I am being beaten routinely -- there was one such incident and I have repeatedly stated that this was an accident. What is not an accident, however, is that the powerful pretend that they have never touched me at all. Any state commits a serious mistake when it denies facts only to protect the system. But this is what happens here. And still it could be much worse. Maybe I should consider myself lucky: I am still alive -- and I can speak to SPIEGEL. What more do I want?
SPIEGEL: You have considerable influence on your country's image abroad. Isn't it difficult for an artist to depict reality without compromising its complexity?
Ai: I have a different view. A few days ago I saw a video about the sun. NASA had spent years producing the film, but it lasts for no more than three minutes. When I saw this I realized that truth will get much simpler the longer we think about something. Our existence as such is accidental, and we should appreciate it. I like the idiom we use in Chinese to express the brevity of life: "Bay ju guo xi" -- the moment a white foal takes to jump over a crevice. Life is a value in itself, and every dictatorial attempt to steal its surprises and cut its possibilities is a crime.
SPIEGEL: When the Chinese poet Liao Yiwu was awarded with the Peace Prize of the German Booksellers, he said about present-day China: "This empire must break apart." Do you agree with him?
Ai: I didn't read the speech. But I too have doubts about whether this system can hold up structure and order for a long time to come. The nature of this state is self-destructive. Whoever doesn't want to hear the voices of others, whoever doesn't let them speak freely, will not see danger coming. And he will be unable to adapt. Life, however, is nothing but permanent adaptation.
SPIEGEL: But hasn't this system adapted astonishingly? If someone visited China now, for the first time in 30 years, he or she would hardly recognize the place.
Ai: No! China has become prosperous, there is no denying this. And maybe the system is lucky for having abandoned any principle. But what have we paid to get so prosperous? How sustainable is this sort of change? We have exploited our resources, it will take decades to fill the holes we dug. And the powerful have neither the vision nor the passion nor the bravery they would need to do this. Take education, for example: There were a few dozen Chinese high school students studying in the United States a few years back. Now there are 170,000 at America's universities. Even my neighbors, my craftsmen ask me to recommend their daughters to foreign universities. This is a nation which lacks trust.
SPIEGEL: Trust in what?
Ai: When we drink water, we are suspicious. When we buy food, we hesitate. When we visit a doctor, we ask ourselves if we will be treated correctly. And when we are entering a legal dispute, we think about how we can find someone to bail us out. What kind of state is this? Can it get any worse?
SPIEGEL: New President Xi Jinping says he has a "dream for China": Greater prosperity, a better environment, a life of dignity. What is your dream for China?
Ai: Very simple: Give the powerless their voice, give them the right to vote. And if you think you cannot do this now, then give them a schedule: Tell them that you will give them the right to vote in 10 days, 10 months or 10 years. But don't tell them that they are living in the best of all worlds already. The Chinese are patient, but those in power have betrayed them. When the communists started out around 80 years ago, they got so much support from the people that they succeeded remarkably easily in founding a new state. Today you are not allowed to print an article they would have printed before 1949. Why? Because they themselves called for a democratic society, for the freedom of speech and human rights back then.
SPIEGEL: Will those who succeed the communists be any better?
Ai: There is no guarantee, and this is why this country needs its artists. People often ask me: So when China finally becomes democratic -- what will you do then? My answer is: I will fight for the democratic system to dissolve. This will be the only way to look for what other possibilities there are.
SPIEGEL: Can you move freely within China?
Ai: Yes, I can fly. I only need my identity card for that. When the air pollution became unbearable last winter, I took my children to Fujian. It isn't fair to expose them to such air for months. At the airport, of course, we were followed again. I kicked the guy in the ass, but he didn't even turn around. I recorded the scene, it is funny. They have a clear rule: If there is a camera running, never show your face.
SPIEGEL: What has happened since then?
Ai: Not much. Apart from being prevented from leaving the country, I don't feel any other restrictions. It seems they have completely given up on me. They don't even call to correct me. They used to do that when they didn't want me to comment on any particular matter. I had suggested this to them myself, but of course I couldn't help it anyway, because too many things came up. And then they found out, mostly two weeks later, when some Chinese exile newspaper or website had translated my tweets.
Interview conducted by Bernhard Zand
- Part 1: 'I Want To Put Up a Fight'
- Part 2: 'If I was a Western Politician, I Probably Would like Dictators, Too'