SPIEGEL Interview with Daniel Barenboim 'The Germans Are Prisoners of Their Past'

World-famous Argentine-Israeli conductor Daniel Barenboim is noted for his strong views on the Middle East peace process and for performing Wagner's music in Israel. In a SPIEGEL interview, he explains why the Israeli antipathy toward Wagner is grotesque and argues that Israel shouldn't depend too much on Germany and the US for support.


SPIEGEL: Mr. Barenboim, why are you fighting to perform the music of Richard Wagner in Israel? No other composer is as hated there as this anti-Semitic German composer.

Barenboim: It saddens me that official Israel so doggedly refuses to allow Wagner to be performed -- as was the case, once again, at the University of Tel Aviv two weeks ago -- because I see it as a symptom of a disease. The words I'm about to use are harsh, but I choose them deliberately: There is a politicization of the remembrance of the Holocaust in Israel, and that's terrible.

SPIEGEL: Please explain what you mean.

Barenboim: When I came to Israel from Argentina in 1952, as a 10-year-old, no one talked about the Holocaust. The catastrophe was still much too close for the survivors, and young Israelis wanted to create a new Judaism. They wanted to show that Jews were not only able to be artists and bankers, but could also pursue farming and sports. They looked forward and didn't want to talk about the suffering of their parents.

SPIEGEL: When did that change?

Barenboim: With the trial of Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem in 1961. Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion thought at the time, and rightly so, that it was necessary for the Israelis to experience, based on the example of a perpetrator, what had happened there. Seeing all the savagery, coldness and inhumanity of the Shoah in this individual, Eichmann, was unbelievable. It was the first time that I, like all my school friends, thought about World War II in detail. Suddenly they were saying: We have to do something so that this sort of thing will never happen again.

SPIEGEL: What was wrong with that?

Barenboim: Nothing, of course, but a misunderstanding also arose at the time, namely that the Holocaust, from which the Jews' ultimate claim to Israel was derived, and the Palestinian problem had something to do with each other. Six years after the Eichmann trial, the Six-Day War erupted, and after that war Israel was different than before. Whereas there had been no political opposition to the government's development policy until then, a fierce debate suddenly began after the 1967 victory: Should Israel return the occupied territories or not? The Orthodox Jews even said that they weren't occupied territories, but Biblical regions that had been liberated! An enormous alliance started growing after that, the same alliance of the right and the Orthodox Jews that rules Israel today.

SPIEGEL: What does that have to do with Richard Wagner?

Barenboim: Well, since the Six-Day War, Israeli politicians have repeatedly established a connection between European anti-Semitism and the fact that the Palestinians don't accept the founding of the State of Israel. But that's absurd! The Palestinians weren't primarily anti-Semitic. They just didn't accept their expulsion. But European anti-Semitism goes much further back than to the partition of Palestine and the establishment of Israel in 1948. It even goes further back than the Holocaust. Just think of the pogroms in Russia and in Ukraine, the Dreyfus affair in France and anti-Semite Richard Wagner. There is no connection between the Palestinian problem and European anti-Semitism, except that the Palestinians are now expected to pay for historic sins. There are probably many people in Israel who believe that Wagner, who died in 1883, lived in Berlin in 1942 and was friends with Hitler.

SPIEGEL: His daughter-in-law Winifred made up for that later on. She was a confidante of Hitler, and the dictator was a constant guest at Bayreuth, home of the annual Bayreuth Festival, which celebrates Wagner's operas.

Barenboim: I have the greatest respect for the survivors of the Holocaust. We can't even imagine what these people went through. And yet even they have differing positions. Take, for example, that of my friend Imre Kertész, the Hungarian poet, who is also a Holocaust survivor. We had hardly known each other for two weeks when he said to me: Can you get me tickets for Bayreuth? I respect that there are survivors who can't, and certainly don't want to, listen to this music. But I don't accept that the fact that an orchestra playing Wagner in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem would do any harm to someone sitting in an apartment in Haifa.

SPIEGEL: What fascinates you about Wagner? Why does he impress intellectuals so much?

Barenboim: Wagner exploited all forms of expression at a composer's disposal -- harmony, dynamics, orchestration -- to the extreme. His music is highly emotional, and at the same time Wagner has extraordinary control over the effect he achieves. That's why there is also something manipulative about Wagner's music, which is not to say that it's not honest. In fact, I believe that it's totally honest, but it also happens to be manipulative.

SPIEGEL: Does that also explain the Nazis' affinity for his music?

Barenboim: Wagner can't be held directly responsible for that connection. But Wagner was a terrible anti-Semite. His 1850 essay, "Judaism in Music," is one of the worst anti-Semitic pamphlets of all time. Hitler made Wagner into a prophet. But Hitler, of course, reinterpreted even the worst things Wagner wrote about the Jews in a way for which Wagner cannot be held responsible. I understand, of course, the associations with the Nazis some people have when they hear something like "Lohengrin."

SPIEGEL: How exactly did it come about that you and your West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, which consists of young Arab and Israeli musicians, performed Wagner?

Barenboim: The musicians wanted it. I said: Sure, but we have to talk about it. It's a tricky decision. It was important to me that we didn't convince any of the musicians to play the music against their will.

SPIEGEL: Did the initiative come from the Arabs?

Barenboim: On the contrary. It was the Israelis. The Israeli brass players. Wagner is pretty heavy on the brass section. But I explained the musical importance of Wagner to the orchestra. As a musician, you can't simply ignore him.

SPIEGEL: Mr. Barenboim, are you an Israeli patriot?

Barenboim: What's an Israeli patriot? What is there to be proud of today? How can you be a patriot in a country that has occupied foreign territory for the last 45 years? One that isn't capable of accepting that there is also another account of the last 60 years. Yes, the Palestinians could have accepted the partition of Palestine on Nov. 29, 1947, and that was precisely what they didn't do, because they thought the partition was unjust. Why can't we accept that as a historic fact and turn the page? It's just inhuman.

SPIEGEL: You're lenient with the Arabs, but Israel's neighbors behave in hostile ways. Didn't Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad say that he wanted to wipe the "Zionist entity" off the map?

Barenboim: I'm not naïve. I know perfectly well that there isn't a single Arab or Muslim in the world who would say: There has to be a Jewish state in the Middle East. But why should they say that? Israel's strategy cannot be to constantly confront the Palestinians with the history of the Holocaust, but instead to show them that Israel is a reality. We have made mistakes and you've made mistakes, but we're here and you're here. Let's make peace, with justice for all. It's probably too late for that. But who knows?

SPIEGEL: Why does this conflict seem to be so intractable?

Barenboim: Because the whole world doesn't see it for what it really is. In truth, everyone knows how this story ends: Israel's withdrawal to the 1967 borders and a viable solution to the questions of (the status of) Jerusalem, the borders and the returnees. But it isn't a conflict that can be resolved politically or even militarily. It's a human conflict in which two nations are deeply convinced that they are entitled to the same piece of land. We don't need a Middle East Quartet consisting of the United Nations, the Russians, the Europeans and the Americans. We need a psychiatrist.

SPIEGEL: And that would help?

Barenboim: I'm sure that there are many Israelis who dream of waking up one day to find the Palestinians gone. And there are many Palestinians who dream of going to bed at night and waking up the next morning to find the Israelis gone. If a man dreams about sleeping with Marilyn Monroe, he's certainly entitled to that. But when he wakes up, he has to acknowledge that he is married to someone else.


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katjoeus 06/22/2012
1. Fantastic interview!!
This is a great interview with a fantastic musician and human being. What he says makes so much sense - if only there could be more like him, then the Middle East (and Israel!) wouldn't be in the mess they're in. Unbiased, unresentful arguments. Chapeau!!
Ariram 06/22/2012
2. Wagner was the first modern personality to speak about exterminating the Jews!!!
Barenboim should remember that Wagner was the first modern personality to propose genocide of the Jews. In his article he compared the Jews to parasites harming the German music and culture and the solution is extermination. As long as there are survivors of the Holocaust who object to playing his music in any official Israeli institution, one has to respect their feelings. Barenboim does not tell us that the Palestinians not only objected to the partition. They started a war hoping to prevent by force the implementation of the UN plan. That war cost the lives of 6,400 Jews, a whole one percent of the total Jewish population in Palestine at that time. Contrary to Birenboim's assertion, Israel would have come into being with and without the Holocaust.
phillipwh 06/24/2012
3. Supporter of Daniel
Who can pretend to understand the Middle East? Who is not shamed by the holocaust? Many of us go silent although very concerned by Israel's current course. We go silent because Jews have suffered too much. I always follow what Daniel does and say and hope that he has a following in Israel, because I have great difficulty believing in the course set by the current Prime Minister of Israel.
altagir 06/24/2012
Mr Barenboim makes many good points. However one side of the Israel/Palestine story is generally forgotten. Muslims have a long and generally positive relation with the Jewish people. The Prophet Mohammed PBUH was sitting with some of his companions when a funeral passed by. He stood out of respect. One of his companions asked why he had stood for the funeral of a Jew. He replied, 'Was he not a soul'. The second Caliph, Omar ibn al Khattab was asked to personally accept the keys of Jerusalem when the Muslims captured it from the Byzantines. One of his first acts was to invite the Jews to return to Jerusalem. When Salahudin Al Ayubi took back Jerusalem from the Crusaders he also invited the Jews to return. I think it will be impossible for the Jewish people to forget the Holocaust. All I would ask them to remember is who invited them to share the Holy City of Jerusalem and share it accordingly.
shragakelson 07/01/2012
5. Barenboim uses harsh words. Me too
Mr. Barenboim said he is going to use harsh words. I am going to use harsh words too. Barenboim's answers are filled with self righteousness, half truths, lies and worst of all hypocrisy. 1. Barenboim: "It saddens me that official Israel so doggedly refuses to allow Wagner to be performed". Not True. The official Israel DOES allow, contrary to Barenboim's claim, Wagner's Music to be sold, consumed and played but NOT in public halls and public institutions, which are supported by the public, part of which are still the Holocaust Survivors which are getting less every. 2. Barenboim: "I have the greatest respect to the holocaust survivors". Is that so? Barenboim's last concert at the Hall of the Israeli philharmonic Orchestra in Tel Aviv with the Berlin's Orchestra, in which he played Wagner at the encore, contrary to the specific agreement no to, was nothing less then a hypocritical Schweinerei. It is not enough to claim to "have the greatest respect to the holocaust survivors", but then to present them with the Fact "Listen to Wagner or the Door is Open". Is that "the greatest respect" he is talking about? I do regret for having missed this concert myself, because although I personally do listen to Wagner's music among others, but in this case I would have prevented this disgusting filthy trick played by him, telling those who cannot tolerate this music to get out. 3. Barenboim: "Wagner cannot be held responsible..." Barenboim's claim that Wagner had nothing to do with the Holocaust is similar to the claim that the Swastika is an ancient Hindu Symbol of Magic and it was even discovered in one of the ancient Jewish Synagogues in Ein Gedi next to the Dead Sea, Israel. It is not what it is, but what it represents as a symbol, and what emotions it raises in holocaust survivors who upon hearing this music re-live this terrible traumatic episode they went through, and this is what Barenboim and his alike hypocritically refuse to recognize. 4. Barenboim: "The Palestinians weren't primarily anti-Semitic. They just didn't accept their expulsion". Absolute nonsense. Mr. Barenboim like many other left oriented circles & "Peace Seekers" in Israel and outside are constantly covering the fact that Anti-Semitism and Nazism goes like a thread between the religious leaders of the Palestinians long before World War 2, the Mufti Haj Amin El Husseini who was actively involved in promoting the "Final Solution" and recruited Islamic S.S troops to join the effort which got him the recognition of The Führer making him an S.S General, all the way to the present leader of the Palestinian Authority Abu Maazen, who is the only one in the world carrying a Doctorate Degree in Holocaust denial from a Soviet University, and insisting that a Palestinian State must be "Judenrein". 5. Barenboim: "Israel's security rests on only one pillar: the Palestinians' acceptance of the country". Really?, Was there such an acceptance ever before, and is there an indication that upon withdrawal to the 67 borders there will be such acceptance. Have Mr. Barenboim heard about the Palestinian National Covenant and its content? The simple truth is: if the Arabs will lay their arms there will be peace, if Israel will lay its arms there will be no Israel. 6. Barenboim: "it's absurd to ban Wagner while buying German submarines at the same time". Another Barenboim's nonsense. The whole issue of reparations from Germany was very controversial in Israel. In Germany it is called Wiedergutmachung, but never so in Israel. For preventing another Holocaust we will be willing to buy from the Devil himself. Again Mr. Barenboim hypocritically ignores the real issue of Wagner's Music in Israel. 7. And lastly few words of optimism. Mr. Anwar Sadat in his memoirs wrote that only after having realized that there is no way to beat Israel in a war, he chose peace. He paid for it with his life. When I was a child peace with our neighbors seemed a remote dream. So far Israel has peace contracts with 2 Arab countries and unofficial relations with several others. The only way for peace is to develop the mutual economical interests and to make it clear to all sides that WAR ITSELF IS THE TRUE ENEMY. Artists have a tendency to seek short term gratification and have no patience for the long processes, they are also so hung up on their skill and fame that I find no imagination in them to think outside the box.
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